Pushing North American Universities

[KillingEvenings]

I'm mid way through another cycle of DC applying to state and independent selective secondary schools in London and have noticed on the tours they all bring up North American Universities as destinations for the leavers, in the same breath as their Oxbridge numbers.

Any thoughts as to what is behind this? Seems a very expensive option when we have so many great schools here. (They will mostly be 4+ year degrees and with tuition at £50K+ a year. Yikes! )

From the schools' perspective it sounds a bit like bragging as I assume they are pointing out very selective universities in the US.

From the students' perspective, the degree structure is different in North America (the US especially, I think Canada is a bit different) and this can be a good choice for some students. I don't know that I would say it's worth International student private prices, but I do understand the appeal (my oldest is in 11th grade in the USA and looking at universities).

They mention it on the tour because they have lots of parents who have read articles like these and probably ask about it:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/forget-oxbridge-for-todays-gilded-youth-ivy-league-is-the-goal-and-parents-will-spend-a-fortune-to-get-them-there-69gbq3tkx

www.cbc.ca/news/world/britain-students-canada-1.6262703

www.telegraph.co.uk/education-and-careers/2021/03/11/oxbridge-welcomes-students-state-schools-eton-students-might/

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/going-private-is-putting-our-childrens-oxbridge-chances-at-risk-parents-fear-wvdpjsd3z

@KillingEvenings

I'm mid way through another cycle of DC applying to state and independent selective secondary schools in London and have noticed on the tours they all bring up North American Universities as destinations for the leavers, in the same breath as their Oxbridge numbers.

Any thoughts as to what is behind this? Seems a very expensive option when we have so many great schools here. (They will mostly be 4+ year degrees and with tuition at £50K+ a year. Yikes! )

Firstly most of the top 10 universities in the world are in the US.

Secondly the ivy league is in a different ....er league in providing no-repayable aid and the like compared to our UK system of student loans.

Financial aid is given in the form of grants, not loans, so you will not be required to pay them back. Even a family on low six figures can get a huge amount of help. Of course I'm only talking about the elite US schools. It's actually cheaper for a family on say 100K to send their DC to Harvard than Oxford.

I should clarify that I went to one of those elite US schools so am very familiar with them (or them of the early naughties) but not to resources available to international students. All the financial aid we saw in my day was a mixture of loans and discounted admission based on need. I don't think most of the families sending their DC to private schools in London would qualify for needs based financial aid so would be interested if you had any more info need-blind grants. I imagine they would be more akin to super selective scholarships and highly competitive, but maybe I'm wrong and it's just about knowing what forms to complete.

I still attest though that the UK has great schools. It's misleading to say most of the top 10 schools are in the US but not mention 3 or 4 (depending on who's ranking you look at) are in the UK which, considering the relative sizes of the two countries shows the UK punching well above it's weight.

Ivies have changed in the past 20 years. If you get in, the aid packages have improved and several Ivies have gotten rid of student loans. American student loans are provided on less favourable terms than English ones, which is an issue. Federal loans are currently 3.73% (I had to Google this!)

Not being a US citizen or permanent resident means you don't qualify for certain types of aid, also, and I don't think most universities will make up that difference (except sometimes for undocumented immigrants). Add to that the income for most people who send their kids to top tier independent schools, and I would think most of them would not get a great deal of assistance. However there may be other funding opportunities eg sport.

that said, Canada can be a much less expensive option than the US.

@KillingEvenings

I should clarify that I went to one of those elite US schools so am very familiar with them (or them of the early naughties) but not to resources available to international students. All the financial aid we saw in my day was a mixture of loans and discounted admission based on need. I don't think most of the families sending their DC to private schools in London would qualify for needs based financial aid so would be interested if you had any more info need-blind grants. I imagine they would be more akin to super selective scholarships and highly competitive, but maybe I'm wrong and it's just about knowing what forms to complete.

I still attest though that the UK has great schools. It's misleading to say most of the top 10 schools are in the US but not mention 3 or 4 (depending on who's ranking you look at) are in the UK which, considering the relative sizes of the two countries shows the UK punching well above it's weight.

You'd be surprised how many families sending their kids to selective schools are on "modest" salaries of say 100K and making sacrifices to pay. Also many schools in London do help these families, some of them offer bursaries even for families with own home (with a mortgage) and earning a joint salary of say 90K. Keep in mind the average salary in London SIGNIFICANTLY lower than 100K, for the UK its even lower, think half and then some. So yes, within Westminster or UCS or Kings etc, there are families with millions, there are many with modest incomes that still dwarf most in this country

I love my country, but it's simply a fact the US schools are jaw dropping compared to many a good university here in the UK, for resources, research, teaching, the works. And compared to ours, they offer financial help to students. The UK has history on its side that distorts our importance. We've had a brain drain to the US universities since the 50's. And it looks like not ending anytime soon.

Harvard offer help even for low six figure income families (GBP) and its open to UK students, so those "modest" families sending their kids to private school aren't out of the running is my point.

And to be blunt, if the cut off is around 200K, that seems fair if it ensures families on modest incomes aren't held back .

I understand what you're saying, why bother going to Harvard when Oxford and Cambridge is only up the road, but for me to send my son or daughter to one of the Oxbridge colleges, on a modest salary I would pay fees of 9K a year, and help them with ALL living costs, the only 'help' I will receive is a loan from the government.

The University themselves provide nothing, except hardship funds for students that are in real difficulty ( but not for fees, for living costs) and of course there are prizes and scholarships but nothing like the level of help from places like Harvard.

www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/fees-and-funding/oxford-support

college.harvard.edu/financial-aid/how-aid-works

@KillingEvenings

I'm mid way through another cycle of DC applying to state and independent selective secondary schools in London and have noticed on the tours they all bring up North American Universities as destinations for the leavers, in the same breath as their Oxbridge numbers.

Any thoughts as to what is behind this? Seems a very expensive option when we have so many great schools here. (They will mostly be 4+ year degrees and with tuition at £50K+ a year. Yikes! )

From the school's point of view, there are plenty of people comparing the numbers going to Oxbridge from different schools - if their numbers are lower because some of their brightest and best go abroad, they'll want you to realise. They'll also want anyone on the tour who is considering US universities to know that they have experience in the process.

The cynic in me says it’s because many UK top schools are finding competition to get into Oxbridge is fierce - it’s no longer a shoe in from any school - and parents are more
keen on a US university than a lower ranked UK university.
Many of my friends’ kids have gone to US universities who didn’t get into Oxbridge. They wouldn’t have considered the brilliant Russell group options.
The one exception is the group who go on sports scholarships which seem incredibly generous.

Getting into top US universities with very generous financial aid is difficult. The Ivies and near Ivies only tax 4-10% of applicants. Aid rules are different for international students, and obtaining visas can be problematic. Covid has made traveling much more complicated, and flights add to total student costs. Think carefully before applying to American universities.

US universities offer so much for the bright UK student. Doing a degree in the US for UK kids is so worthwhile, but the caveat is its the reserve of families that qualify for lots of aid/win scholarships or families that are very very wealthy.

In that sense they are a match for many families attending "state and independent selective secondary schools in London"

Thanks, that makes a lot of sense re explaining oxbridge numbers and that they knowing the process. I didn't realise there is a perception amongst some that going to a school abroad is considered a more prestigious avenue then a Russel group.

I think there are a lot of positives about the US system so don't want this thread to be about bashing that choice, but I do think realistically for most applicants it would be an expensive option.

At our school it’s because they are finding that they have straight A* students who are not getting any offers from their chosen uk universities.

Head pupil last year had straight A* predictions and no offers. Same situation this year.

US is definitely more expensive option for many. But Ivy league unis are also greatly sought after. It is true getting scholarship/funding can be hard initially and it is a tad bend towards those nations whose currencies are weaker. Nevertheless if someone feels that they will prefer to work in US or that they will get better opening there, many choose to then study in US Unis as well. My cousin completed her graduation there and entered into US workforce with ease. On top she has the benefit of having a network of friends from the same uni. She did not get full funding in the first year, but in the following years she managed good amount of funding plus worked in Uni lab which provided her with enough subsistence.

If you own (or are buying on a mortgage) a house in London you are probably over the asset level for US financial aid. Friends’ children have had various sports scholarships to Ivy/West coast unis and they have been prestigious rather than financial. The colleges which specialise in tennis/soccer scholarships may be different.

The other thing the schools don’t tell you is that some of the students are legacies so will get into a US college more easily than your average student.

@LizziesTwin

If you own (or are buying on a mortgage) a house in London you are probably over the asset level for US financial aid. Friends’ children have had various sports scholarships to Ivy/West coast unis and they have been prestigious rather than financial. The colleges which specialise in tennis/soccer scholarships may be different.

The other thing the schools don’t tell you is that some of the students are legacies so will get into a US college more easily than your average student.

Home equity isn't considered at Harvard. Not sure about others.

US Financial Aid isn't what I'm talking about, Aid paid directly by the Ivy. US Financial Aid isn't available for non US students period.

@HasaDigaEebowai

At our school it’s because they are finding that they have straight A* students who are not getting any offers from their chosen uk universities.

Head pupil last year had straight A* predictions and no offers. Same situation this year.

Predictions or actual results? I have heard from a head of X at a key London school that their kids were being rejected even though they had stellar predictions, because a high proportion weren’t achieving them. If they reapplied a year later with actual results, they were getting offers from the same universities. In effect the school have let them down by over predicting the stretch grades.

No offers based on the predictions.

8 of the top 10 global universities are in the U.S. A top UK student has just one chance to get into Oxbridge. She/he has a further 8 chances by applying to the U.S. If you can afford it, then why wouldn't you apply? Outside of Oxbridge, how many UK universities can compete with MIT, Stanford or Princeton?

"modest" salaries of say 100K

Pffffttt... Sure, £100k is "modest" now. Whatevs.

My nephew (American) is at an Ivy League Uni, with lots of financial aid. It was quite an ordeal to get in and he was rejected by many others -- he'll graduate with huge amounts of debt and he can only really afford it because of grandparents support to help with some living costs. His parents do actually own their home, I doubt their household income is more than $60k gross. Americans expect their student debt to follow them to death.

The one great benefit nephew has had from his IvyLU is terrific internships in the summer hols. On minimum wage, of course, far from a living wage, but very neat opportunities to be fair.

www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2022

These guys list 4 of the top ten in the UK. Imperial College and UCL

Didn't realise that you couldn't apply to both Oxford and Cambridge. That seems like madness

It's worth noting a lot of the top ranked schools are really not as great for undergraduate students, at least in the American system which is more based on discussion and smaller class sizes. Harvard may have the biggest names on the books, but a first year won't be seeing hide nor hair of them.

@lljkk

"modest" salaries of say 100K

Pffffttt... Sure, £100k is "modest" now. Whatevs.

My nephew (American) is at an Ivy League Uni, with lots of financial aid. It was quite an ordeal to get in and he was rejected by many others -- he'll graduate with huge amounts of debt and he can only really afford it because of grandparents support to help with some living costs. His parents do actually own their home, I doubt their household income is more than $60k gross. Americans expect their student debt to follow them to death.

The one great benefit nephew has had from his IvyLU is terrific internships in the summer hols. On minimum wage, of course, far from a living wage, but very neat opportunities to be fair.

I love the way people say my nephew, my neighbour, my second cousin once removed, did so and so , so it must be right.

The aid I looked at was for Harvard, it's very generous , I have no idea (or care) what your cousin gets help on, if he's at Harvard, he's lucked out as I understand these changes are relatively recent.

100k isn't a huge family income in London, one of the most expensive cities on Earth where to rent in somewhere deemed OK, far from posh, for a family of 3 ( 2 parents and 1 child) will cost around 42K a year, or you buy for a minimum of 700K , oh, assuming you have 70K deposit you can't afford it! Private tuition with all the usual extras of uniform, trips, presents for parties at DC's best friend whose hired the British Museum, over around 35K a year, so your rent and kids fees , so now your family has 23K a year to live, eat, holiday, gas bills, internet bills, phones, Netflix, etc, etc, etc...

100k in London. WHATEVS

Financial aid is given in the form of grants, not loans, so you will not be required to pay them back. Even a family on low six figures can get a huge amount of help. Of course I'm only talking about the elite US schools. It's actually cheaper for a family on say 100K to send their DC to Harvard than Oxford

This. Dc is in discussion with an ivy at the minute.

If they get in it will cost us about 5k a year for medical insurance, flights, books, and spending money. On our income (below 50k) all tuition, food and accommodation will be paid for.

American universities are also becoming popular for sports scholarships- kids are getting free university for being on the swim team or whatever. Over here if you aren’t lottery funded it’s often your only option to continue training post-18.

"100k isn't a huge family income in London"

yes it is huge. Ok, we can quibble about meaning of "huge" if you like.

Google says that the average grant given out at nephew's Ivy League institution is 15-20% higher than at Harvard.