Pushing North American Universities

[KillingEvenings]

I'm mid way through another cycle of DC applying to state and independent selective secondary schools in London and have noticed on the tours they all bring up North American Universities as destinations for the leavers, in the same breath as their Oxbridge numbers.

Any thoughts as to what is behind this? Seems a very expensive option when we have so many great schools here. (They will mostly be 4+ year degrees and with tuition at £50K+ a year. Yikes! )

I noticed this OP. Must admit that our first thought was “Christ! How will we afford that?”. We’ve saved into some accounts for university for both children but that assumes they’ll pay the equivalent of £9k a year.

Having said that, I think that the way university isn’t as specialised for undergraduates in the US is better for some. I was 15 when I chose my A levels and 17 when I chose my degree. Seems ridiculous now.

I’ve been working in the Us for a while now. My experience of working with new grads is both countries is that the American colleges do a much better job of training their students to be able to perform well in a role post graduation. Yes it’s expensive, but it’s completely worth it if you go to a top 50 school and apply yourself accordingly to get a good GPA and stay in the US after until your loans are repaid.

It’s $300k minimum for a bachelor degree at a private college. Most graduate roles start at $80-100k. Americans spend so much more money on frivolous stuff it’s insane. It’s not a surprise that many spend 30 years repaying their student loans. When shops shut during covid everyone’s savings went up and debts were paid off.

The trend at many private schools is more DCs are going to North American universities over the last ten years. So now, the schools are featuring this. SPGS just sent 22% of the class to NA, more than double from just a few years ago.

It’s not $300k minimum to study at a private university unless you decide to pay full rack for it.

There are many options for cheaper public universities and private universities also offer lots of scholarships and aids so it’s on you if you decide to go to a private school you didn’t afford with no aid or scholarship. Then you better make sure you have a plan to pay the debt by going into a career with high salaries.

www.cnbc.com/amp/2019/04/05/it-costs-78200-to-go-to-harvardheres-what-students-actually-pay.html

this shows the actual average amounts people pay at Harvard and it’s the same at other top universities. You also have many public universities offering cheaper or even free education for lower income families so people should be making sensible decisions. While there are a few areas where Ivy League degree opens more doors, in majority of career paths you will get good opportunities from cheaper universities as well. You can I sit Ivy League if you’re committed to careers like investment banking etc but to pay full rack for a private university and then decide to be a social worker is a dumb decision.

University of Illinois for example is a good public university and feeds into top employers in the Chicago and Midwest area and it’s free if you have a family income under $67k.

osfa.illinois.edu/illinois-commitment/

if you were to pay as a resident it’s $16k for everything which means tuition, room and board, fees etc. that’s cheaper than UK universities.

cost.illinois.edu/Home/Cost/R/U/Compare/12/120228/120228

Another misconception which you showed in your post is the average American is graduating with $100k student debt. That’s not true. I was trying to find a graph that shows the student debt broken by amount and I can’t find it but it showed that majority are under $40k. A small proportion graduate with $100k and above and those tend to be doctors lawyers MBAs etc who command huge salaries not under garage but as brits we think it’s undergraduate degrees. Yes there are some people who graduate with the $100k type loans for undergrads but it’s due to pore decision making to go to private universities with no aid or scholarships and it also tends to be poor lower ranked universities at that.

www.nerdwallet.com/article/loans/student-loans/student-loan-debt

in summary with common sense and applying restraint you can get educated in the US for cheaper and have a good career. You don’t need to go the popular party school your friends are going.

Your $300k for bachelors is just so wrong . That NerdWallet article shows the higher debt amounts are for doctors dentists etc not bachelor degrees and even doctors if you take into consideration that’s about 10 - 14 years of education you will see the per annum is lower than you think. That’s bachelors. Masters, residence etc.

I just feel there’s too many misconceptions about the US and so how we act like we understand and know it and keep repeating stereotypes.

@Cantstandbullshit

I was clear in my post and said private college. $300k is about the ballpark cost. Tuition is about $50k per year and living costs will run about $25k a year because the student will need health insurance and renting in a safe area isn’t cheap.

Yes lower income families will qualify for scholarships at the schools with big endowments but smaller schools are not as generous.

You mention a social worker and I find it baffling as to why anyone wanting to go into such a field would want to study abroad. Same with teaching. I would think it advantageous to study in the country you plan to work in for such fields.

The public schools are a mixed bag. They have many more students and it’s very easy for the students to get lost. Rutgers is $30k a year. It’s a good school but I thought the fresh graduates from NYU, Seton Hall, Lehigh and Upenn were much better prepared. Seton Hall, being a catholic school is $30k a year tuition but the rest are all $50k annual ticket cost. Notre Dame is also an excellent school with lower cost as it’s a Catholic college.

Westpoint is also a good college and if you serve the GI bill will pay for post graduate studies. It’s not a bad deal if you plan to do a high cost course such as law or an MBA.

@Aintnosupermum
Few US universities or educational charities give generous discounts to British kids. The competition is fierce at the few that do. The private universities do charge well in excess of $50,000 a year and bringing that down to $10,000 is virtually impossible. I looked for DD. We qualified for nothing. She got a small scholarship that barely made a dent. Often usa parents have no idea what the situation is for others. They are in their own bubble.

Yes. It’s mostly very rich people who could pay full fees anywhere. So why not go the USA? They will just buy a house there for DC and it’s no big deal. At our school it was nearly all overseas students who could afford to live and study anywhere globally. For ordinary folk, it’s a massive deal. Post grad is easier.

We are not at this stage yet for DS2 who is interested in studying in the US. I was under the impression from him that Harvard, Yale and Princeton give very generous needs blind offers to international students even to parents who earn circa £120,000.

Does anyone know more about this ?

Those U of I figures are per semester not per year. UIUC is known to be relatively expensive for public.

Financial aid is quoted inclusive of living costs (though the estimates are a bit low).

The average student loan in the US, for undergrad, is now less than England. However it's paid back under much less favourable terms. The thing is that the government loans for undergraduate are capped. If you want to borrow more than about $30K as a dependent student, you're looking at parent PLUS loans or private loans. There are some universities that are known for being dodgy and giving generous aid for the first year or two, then pulling back, forcing students to take out private loans to complete.

It is really impossible to give solid figures for private universities as it all depends on your income level. Of course if you're wealthy, you'll be paying full cost anywhere.

West Point is a whole other kettle of fish. You're committing to serve in the Army, you must secure a nomination, and it's incredibly competitive. There's some programme for international cadets but they might have to serve in their home armed forces. I don't know where you;'re getting your information as Notre Dame is $60K for tuition. The top Catholic colleges are not any cheaper!

@Willitsoobesummer - DS has an offer from Princeton for this year. I can confirm the financial aid is very generous. It's quite complicated but it's not assessed purely on income and the value of your property and pension savings aren't included. If you have other children in higher education that's taken into account. The assessment looks at cost to the family - so any finance siblings receive in the UK is taken into account.

@Willitsoobesummer
Yes. Needs blind if the university really wants you. Of course the whole world applies! It’s very competitive. If they gave this level of generous funding to every family earning under this amount, they could fill it up from non fee payers. So they are choosy! Obviously some DC get them but I would apply in the uk as well.

@TizerorFizz - for HYP it's needs blind if you get an offer - that includes internationals.

That’s not what it says on the Harvard website where you can calculate your contribution. Owning property alters fee contributions for example. It’s not free for all
undergrads.

That you all for your responses. We don't have a high value home or much private pensions. Our income has been good for a few years but is likely to be lower in the year to come. We have paid for some private school although DS2 in now in a state school, the US universities will be able to see that is where our income has gone.

Congratulations @HoneyMobster that is a fantastic achievement!. Do you mind me asking what you needed to provide to the University for application?

I agree @Coucous , if he doesn't apply he'll always wonder what if ?

@Willitsoobesummer - a lot of information!. They expect a lot of detail about all income, investments and expenditure. They will look at the value of your home but don't expect you to release equity from it. Pensions savings are protected as well. Our financial aid offers from H, Y and P were all pretty similar. P was slightly more generous but not hugely.

From the Harvard Financial Aid website @TizerorFizz

Families who have significant assets will be asked to pay more, but home equity and retirement assets are not considered in our assessment of financial need.

Thank you @HoneyMobster .

Didn't this thread start as why UK schools were pushing NA universities? Maybe we need a US financial thread?

@futomaki - the two issues are linked though.

There are families realising that studying in the US could be financially feasible and isn't just the preserve of the super rich. Our experience is only of the Ivies but we absolutely had not considered it for DS until someone told us to look into it.

When DS sat his SAT he recognised lots of children from our local super selective grammar. I suspect those families had also recognised the possibility of a fully-funded or highly subsidised higher education for their DC - potentially cheaper than the UK.

Far from it being the preserve of the super rich, for UK kids it’s the other way around. I know someone who is on pretty much a free ride at Harvard. Nice, clever but not exceptional kid. Divorced parents, fairly low income. Due to the means testing it’s practically free.

my friends DD on the other hand would have to pay full fees due to her parents income. It therefore isn’t feasible.

We are on of the families living in London and sending ours to private schools on family income of around 100k. Having done the Harvard financial aid calculator it would be cheaper for ours to attend Harvard than a UK university. The financial aid is very generous.

First, having taught at a couple of excellent American universities I cannot recall a special fee category for International students. At public unis the dichotomy is between in-state and out-of-state. Private unis make no distinction that I know of in terms of fees. However some unis concentrate financial aid on American students.

The Ivy League and a number of other highly selective schools do not give merit scholarships. Out of interest I just created a fictional profile for the Harvard financial aid calculator. I am European - Harvard does not discriminate, they say - with 2 siblings not at uni. My parents’ total income is USD 175000. They have modest non-retirement assets, excluding the family home. I have only about USD 2500 to my name.

Harvard says my total annual expenses including travel are about 81000. They will give me campus job paying 3500 and very hefty needs based scholarship, leaving my family with an annual bill of just over 29000.

And look again at my parents’ income! Harvard does say that, rightly IMO, non-retirement savings lower the grant and siblings at uni increase it. All families with an annual income below 100000 simply never write a check.. This is fairly typical of the current situation in Ivy League and at comparable universities

They mention it to try to scale back parental expectations of Oxbridge as now Oxbridge has (rightly) started to recruit more actively from state schools, intakes from independents are dropping steeply.
US unis are eye-wateringly expensive at undergrad level. And very very good value/free at post grad.