Pushing North American Universities

[KillingEvenings]

I'm mid way through another cycle of DC applying to state and independent selective secondary schools in London and have noticed on the tours they all bring up North American Universities as destinations for the leavers, in the same breath as their Oxbridge numbers.

Any thoughts as to what is behind this? Seems a very expensive option when we have so many great schools here. (They will mostly be 4+ year degrees and with tuition at £50K+ a year. Yikes! )

@Nomoreusernames1244

Message deleted by MNHQ. Quotes withdrawn post

I'm tired of hearing this ( I'm an academic at university, the reason I was looking at the thread) telling me that 100K income for a family is somehow a lot of money for a London family to live on in London. It isn't,

I completely agree with the other poster and get very angry with relatives who live outside of London telling me I'm rich -when even compared to some of my university students, I certainly am not.

None of my colleagues or my wife's colleagues ( she works in a school) feel even remotely wealthy.

It's great you can live on 35K, I have no idea how you can live on that with 6 people , a cheap 1 bed costs 1K to rent , travelcards, food, gas bills, council tax, but I know many have to make do on less than that.

You're right its all relative , but let's not pretend in a town with flats that cost 25 million, 2 people on 50K a year are rich for goodness sake.

As to the status of US universities, I'm sorry but the academic landscape in Britain is very bleak, we've been on strike, there is little provision to stop the brain drain of valuable research staff to the US or US backed corporates. For my own children I would encourage them to study abroad.

I'm tired of hearing this ( I'm an academic at university, the reason I was looking at the thread) telling me that 100K income for a family is somehow a lot of money for a London family to live on in London. It isn't

I’m tired of hearing 100k is practically poverty line, when pp have shown the average income in london is 1/3 that. You say you know many live on 35k, yet say 100k isn’t rich?

You are in a privileged position. You will be able to afford decent housing, bills, ballet lessons etc without having to worry. Stop whinging. Learn how to budget properly if your measly 100k won’t stretch to waitrose.

Its really not difficult to find out which Ivys are needs bind or needs aware for US or International students,if the cost is a problem only apply to needs blind...Simples..

@Nomoreusernames1244

I'm tired of hearing this ( I'm an academic at university, the reason I was looking at the thread) telling me that 100K income for a family is somehow a lot of money for a London family to live on in London. It isn't

I’m tired of hearing 100k is practically poverty line, when pp have shown the average income in london is 1/3 that. You say you know many live on 35k, yet say 100k isn’t rich?

You are in a privileged position. You will be able to afford decent housing, bills, ballet lessons etc without having to worry. Stop whinging. Learn how to budget properly if your measly 100k won’t stretch to waitrose.

It's all relative, my post earlier said specifically - "You'd be surprised how many families sending their kids to selective schools are on "modest" salaries of say 100K and making sacrifices to pay. Also many schools in London do help these families, some of them offer bursaries even for families with own home (with a mortgage) and earning a joint salary of say 90K. Keep in mind the average salary in London SIGNIFICANTLY lower than 100K, for the UK its even lower, think half and then some. So yes, within Westminster or UCS or Kings etc, there are families with millions, there are many with modest incomes that still dwarf most in this country"

Note the " " by modest and the mention of private education, no-one is saying 100K is poor, but for private education its not rich, that is all.

yes cry me a river, but this is the context of 100k families who might want to send children to the US.

Thankfully Ivys aren't as draconian in dismissing families earning 100K as rich and not requiring any support.

Save your anger and vent to the real rich, families on 100K don't even make it into the 10% of the wealthiest in the UK, and the 1% of the 10% make them look like paupers, calling middle class people 'Rich' makes you sound a like a child.

Save your anger and vent to the real rich, families on 100K don't even make it into the 10% of the wealthiest in the UK, and the 1% of the 10% make them look like paupers, calling middle class people 'Rich' makes you sound a like a child

I’m not angry .

100k is “rich” by my standards. And many others. If that makes me childish so be it. At least i’m not moaning private school leaves me poor or my diamond shoes or too tight…

@Nomoreusernames1244

Save your anger and vent to the real rich, families on 100K don't even make it into the 10% of the wealthiest in the UK, and the 1% of the 10% make them look like paupers, calling middle class people 'Rich' makes you sound a like a child

I’m not angry .

100k is “rich” by my standards. And many others. If that makes me childish so be it. At least i’m not moaning private school leaves me poor or my diamond shoes or too tight…

If household income is say 30K ( the London average), how on Earth do they live in London if

1. They are not in social housing on subsidised rent
2. Living in very overcrowded private housing

Especially as half of Londoners rent either private or social landlords.

If household income is say 30K ( the London average), how on Earth do they live in London if

1) They are not in social housing on subsidised rent
2) Living in very overcrowded private housing

Especially as half of Londoners rent either private or social landlords.

Agree. Although social housing is NOT subsidised, it is the private market that is extortionate unless you mean they receive housing benefit. There are people who under no circumstances want to rent their property out to people on benefits (I find this wrong) but have no choice. We live in a "cheap" area and have spoken to a few estate agents (one is a family friend) and virtually all their renters received housing benefit. The people on 100k won't be on benefits but can't make as many savings as many people would think.

Now, having read the Harvard aid page posted by a pp and also mentioned by another pp I am amazed that in the USA the Ivy leagues can pay for your tuition and accommodation for 50k! Of course you must be first class material to be accepted in the first place but compare this to going to Oxbridge. AND having to pay extortionate rent. I remember paying nearly £400 for a single room to be on the same tube line as my university 20 years ago! There was not even a wardrobe, the landlady still had her boiler in my room. She resented me cooking i.e. using her gas and turned the heating off when she worked and I need to study so I had to cover myself in blankets. Having accommodation paid for me would have been great! And there were virtually no fees for many people when I was studying.

I really had no idea that american universities offered these grant packages to international students. I suppose it's a way of brand building overseas but I find it shocking considering the inequalities in America that they pay for middle class uk families but aren't doing more to nurture and educate from poor marginalised communities in the US. I saw at Columbia they treat 'dreamers' as international students so they have access to these grants - I hope this side of their grant giving grows.

@KillingEvenings - it's the Ivy Leagues that have the most generous financial support. You can see why bright young people might choose to go given their opportunity to get an amazing education and graduate debt free.

Oh, it's worse than that KillingEvenings re social inequality being reinforced Ivy League kids get to borrow more for their Uni costs because the tuition fees are so high. American kids are expected to borrow the maximum available this is a core assumption in the financial aid packages. The amount available is partly % of the actual tuition. So very expensive Ivy League is heavily subsidised by public taxes in form of student loans & tax-payer funded grants.

International students obviously can't access those same (US citizen only) loans so get different fin. packages.

I read that only ~3% of Harvard undergrads come from the 20% poorest American households. The kids who get into Ivy League are already privileged & the system supports them to stay that way.

The basic rule is: if you are super bright and can get everything paid, needs blind, then it’s a great deal. If you have to pay full whack, it’s not! £50,000 a year is just tuition in lots of places. My Dd got a place at a private Art School in NY. We needed in excess of £250,000 to fund this. Just not worth it over £27,000 plus maintenance here. She got a small reduction for a scholarship. Don’t forget flights home either!

In other words. If you don’t get in “needs blind” stay here. Or be rich. Both DDs had Saudi friends who went but overall the numbers are still really small. Obviously Americans in London schools want American universities and have planned this from DC birth. The Brits, generally, have not.

The federal government caps undergraduate student loans at $31,000, of which $23,000 may be subsidized. That summary of the Penn article is rather misleading. If someone has more than that for undergraduate they have done so via private or PLUS loans.

As I said my oldest is in 11th grade and we are in this process. The Ivies tend to give very good packages (someone with a family income of $60K having massive loans doesn't make sense at all, there are a couple of Ivies that are less generous but they all typically meet need even if not all have abolished loans--and by "meets need" they should not be needing to take huge private loans).

There is a tier of universities in the US with very high tuition but much less generous aid programs, and they are not good bargains.

The Ivies have become conscious of undergraduate experience and I really would not say they are bad places to be undergrads. But I would always ask when touring about the percentage of classes taught by TAs or adjuncts. For what Ivies charge they can pay faculty to teach! Some large state universities are much more difficult but of course much cheaper. For student experience, small liberal arts colleges often offer the smallest classes and most student contact, but of course you have to weigh that against other concerns like what classes you want.

@knitnerd90
You still have to compete to get into one! Hardly easy!

Colombia is needs aware for Internationals.

These top USA universities require entry tests and a whole lot of planning for uk students. It’s mostly privately educated students who go. Or sports scholars. I went to a Fulbright info day a few years ago and most people there felt their DC would get no help! Not good enough for Ivy League and elsewhere it was a massively expensive. So be brilliant or have deep pockets. Little available in between for uk students.

@TizerorFizz

These top USA universities require entry tests and a whole lot of planning for uk students. It’s mostly privately educated students who go. Or sports scholars. I went to a Fulbright info day a few years ago and most people there felt their DC would get no help! Not good enough for Ivy League and elsewhere it was a massively expensive. So be brilliant or have deep pockets. Little available in between for uk students.

Which entry tests are you thinking of? Most top schools are moving away from standardized testing. SAT & ACT are increasingly "optional". Fewer schools are requiring SAT Subject Tests (formerly known as Achievement Tests).

SAT. Plus of course the list of good citizen type things you need to have done. I’m not saying people shouldn’t try but it’s not a walk in the park to get a needs blind scholarship!

True, US universities are moving away from standardised testing requirements, which started last year due to Covid, but top top students looking at applying to top 20 US schools are submitting scores anyway as a differentiator and another benchmark. If you're applying to, say, Harvard and Stanford and you're not black/Latino/Native American AND first generation applying to college, it's probably good to submit a strong SAT score.

I’ve not read the full thread but it is getting pretty common to apply to US or Canadian Universities certainly from the independent sector. I think we will see more of it now that the indie sector gets a smaller slice of the Oxbridge pie .

If you are at a very selective indie you have a good chance of picking up an academic scholarship . If you are good at a sport you might get a sports scholarship and it is common for top athletes/rowers etc etc to get direct approaches from universities . There are agents who can help on this and for some sports like my DDs there are sessions where you can have taster sessions with scouts/coaches from the unis . I know several inc my DD who have had direct approached from US unis because of their sport

I know several people who have successfully gone through the process and are loving it . But it is a minefield so getting the right advice is crucial . I think that is why it is mentioned a lot at open days - this is something the indie sector can more readily support . Saying that I do know successful applicants from the state sector too.

If you are good at a sport you might get a sports scholarship and it is common for top athletes/rowers etc etc to get direct approaches from universities .

Sports can definitely help you gain admission to a top university, as witnessed by the recent college admission scandal and also the information revealed by the Harvard lawsuit. However, the monetary value of sports scholarships is often not great if your sport isn't football or men's or women's basketball. Rowing, tennis, diving, etc., are considered non-revenue sports and so have much smaller scholarship budgets.

How much student debt will your new ogre graduate with and what will his starting salary be when he graduates?

Average student debt in the US is actually lower than the UK. UK students benefit from more favorable repayment plans under a certain income one level but when you start earning higher not anymore. And the student debt to starting income ratio is better in the US than UK.

If you’re on lower income you can go to state universities for lower or sometimes even free eg residents of Illinois can attend the state university for free if household income is lower then $67k so there are options. University of Illinois is good school. Yes it’s not Harvard but it’s still a good option to avoid high student debt.

www.admissions.illinois.edu/commitment?gclid=CjwKCAiAhKycBhAQEiwAgf19emKIs7vzVq_aERbWHqajWzEF-kt5lF5wwY9kaGEvj2k_3zufKeQvjRoC7ugQAvD_BwE

if you choose to go to an expensive private Ivy League school then make sure you get enough aid or scholarships to make it worthwhile or aim for high paying jobs. Don’t go to an expensive school then decide you want to be a social worker when we all know their Solaris’s are no that high.

Thats a misconception that the US is not nuturing education in poor communities in the US. There are many many many programs and opportunities to get cheaper or even free education in the US but no matter what the government does you also have to be willing to take up the opportunities.

many states offer free education for low income households eg I lived in Chicago and the state offers free university education if household income is lower than $67k

www.admissions.illinois.edu/commitment?gclid=CjwKCAiAhKycBhAQEiwAgf19emKIs7vzVq_aERbWHqajWzEF-kt5lF5wwY9kaGEvj2k_3zufKeQvjRoC7ugQAvD_BwE

And many other states offer similar or other options so your generic statement is wrong.

Your example using dreamers is not the norm as dreamers are a very different distinct category hence why those colleges treat them as internationals to access more options that they will not be able to access given they are not citizens or permanent residents.

Don't forget that there's also foreign families looking at those same schools as you; if they think their child will pay international fees in the UK then the price difference with the US shrinks dramatically.