Pushing North American Universities

[KillingEvenings]

I'm mid way through another cycle of DC applying to state and independent selective secondary schools in London and have noticed on the tours they all bring up North American Universities as destinations for the leavers, in the same breath as their Oxbridge numbers.

Any thoughts as to what is behind this? Seems a very expensive option when we have so many great schools here. (They will mostly be 4+ year degrees and with tuition at £50K+ a year. Yikes! )

@poetryandwine
Do they not take owned property into consideration at Harvard? I thought they did? I thought wealth counted against you, not just income.

I see there’s a quote above saying they don’t. Ignore me!

It depends what sort of property. Primary home isn't considered, I know for sure. Other properties may be.

Yes,@TizerorFizz Harvard say they exclude the primary residence from consideration. The implication is that other assets, including property, would be regarded similarly to savings

Obviously some students will find studying in the USA challenging: you can’t get home for the weekend if you are a bit low. You need to be resilient. Also the courses are wider ranging and this doesn’t suit everyone either.

I know at least three UK students who got scholarships to top US unis - two academic scholarships (one of them was 100% to Harvard) and one 100% sports scholarship

@XelaM Harvard and the other Ivies are clear that they do not do merit based UG scholarships. How could they possibly choose? Individual departments or schools may give some monetary prizes, and there are.various PG scholarships.

Possibly the 100% academic scholarship means 100% of tuition fees, or even 100% of all expenses if the financial parameters are met. You may well know this, but a number of Mumsnetters ask about academic scholarships to the Ivies every year, meaning merit based scholarships. It can be very confusing.

There is a lot of misinformation on this thread.

An ivy league university like Harvard has fully needs blind admission and provides financial aid in the form of grants to all pupils admitted rather than loans. Once you've gotten through the general admissions process you will get whatever you are entitled to. The Ivy's have such large endowments the resources aren't limited which is why admissions can be truly needs blind.

There are no scholarships and financial aid is need not merit based.

When determining financial aid, the family's pension assets and value of the primary residence are not included. The majority (55%) of students admitted receive some form of financial aid and 20% pay nothing at all. The average parent contribution is only $12k. Up to about earnings of $150k the contribution is competitive with the UK.

college.harvard.edu/financial-aid

All of the above applies to international students as well

I should say no scholarships in the British sense of the word only financial aid. Its not merit based just needs based aid.

Good explanation @LondonGirl83

DS was offered scholarships but these were not at Ivies. Typically less well known colleges (to a Brit) that weren't attractive to him.

Yes, I am only talking about the top Ivies. Other universities operate differently and academic and sports scholarships are common place in the general US education system.

Harvard’s endowment is more than $50b! With funds like this you operate in a completely different universe.

DS is probably going to Princeton. They are also incredibly well endowed - $38 billion 😮

Yes, Yale, Princeton, Harvard are all well endowed :)

Its become a contest amongst them-- they fundraise relentlessly!

A lot of schools advertise themselves as practicing "need-blind admissions" but people should be aware that means only what it says on the tin, that financial need is not taken into account in admissions decisions. It does not imply that a school will provide a full financial aid package to all admitted students.

Furthermore, the vast majority of schools which meet the full demonstrated financial need of all admitted students will expect students to take out all loans for which they are eligible (federal, state, commercial) before they make up the remainder in grants (non-repayable aid).

Not quite all as technically you may be able to get private or PLUS loans that are unlimited. They will normally expect you to take the full Stafford loan if eligible. However a few of the top universities, including Harvard, have a no-loans policy for students under a certain income level.

@expat96 Harvard are needs blind in that any one who is admitted who qualifies for financial assistance with receive it.

@3WildOnes yes, several PP have made that point. My point is that, out of over 100 schools which advertise that they practice need-blind admissions, only about a dozen actually meet the full demonstrated financial need of all students without loans. Harvard is one of them but, for example, half of the Ivies do not.

@expat96 the others are right. Harvard is needs blind and everyone who qualifies for aid will receive the aid they qualify for (its not a limited pot that runs out) and they have a no loan policy. They aren't unique as other Ivies operate in a similar fashion and it covers tuition, housing etc.

Princeton is similar
www.princeton.edu/news/2022/09/08/princeton-will-enhance-its-groundbreaking-financial-aid-program

Yale also has a generous package though somewhat less generous and the details vary by university

finaid.yale.edu/costs-affordability/affordability

Regardless of the merits of the US, top UK unis, and especially Oxbridge have had a real push towards systems which don't actively favour private schools as much as they used to. As such, for many private schools, in the last 10-15 years (and even more if you go back further) their Oxbridge numbers have gone down, so when selling themselves, they need something that looks impressive.

In a way, UK admissions are now the opposite of "needs blind" because students who get lots of widening participation points are often actively favoured.

Getting students into top US unis is impressive, and it gives a good impression to parents, when some of them may be expecting Oxbridge numbers to be higher.

@LondonGirl83 I'm not sure why you write "the others are right." You imply that I am wrong. About what?

Nowhere did I write that Harvard is not need-blind. I specifically acknowledged that Harvard is one of the schools which offers full aid without loans. My assertion is that very few schools are like Harvard in this way, only about a dozen. AFAIK, Brown, Cornell and Penn are still considered part of the Ivy League and still include loans in their financial aid packages.

What are we disagreeing about? Do you believe that many more than a dozen US universities are both need-blind in admissions and offer all accepted students full financial aid packages without loans? Or do you believe that Brown, Cornell and Penn offer all accepted students full financial aid packages without loans?

@LondonGirl83 I've looked at the college websites again and Brown and Penn have switched to debt-free. It doesn't appear that Cornell has yet, although they're starting to look rather lonely.

@expat96 I was confirming I agree with the others who responded to your post. It was already said on the thread before you posted that only the top Ivies primarily took this funding approach and that there were a variety of financial models used throughout the US that differed from this.

Given that was all already said, your initial post was a bit confusing regarding what point you were trying to make. I was just clarifying the position of the schools in question.

I don't think we disagree about anything in reality! No one every said it was all need blind schools or all Ivy League schools. The ability to offer financial aid in this way is very much linked to endowment size as already discussed up thread.