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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

My son has been permanently excluded

158 replies

Expelled123 · 04/12/2021 09:39

Name changed because details are extremely outing.

If there are any experts on here, or if anyone could offer any adice I'd be extremely grateful.

Very briefly. My son used a nicotine pouch in school (he's year 10), they are a legal but age restricted smoking cessation product, in the same way that vapes are. Having legal age restricted products are punishable by fixed exclusion, usually a couple of days.

However, the kid told him it was a banned product called Snus, which is basically chewing tobacco in a pouch.

He has been kicked out, not because it was snus, but because he believed it was snus. All evidence clearly shows it was nicotene pouches.

W.T.A.F???? He's been kicked out because he thought something was something else? How is this even legal?

The Governors upheld the exclusion, even though I coherently fought against the decision with plenty of well researched information.

He's currently at a PRU, I need him out ASAP, it's a hell hole.

I need the permanent exclusion overturned so I can get him into our local catchment school, not an easy move currently as the school can refuse him, or it will be a managed move with all the problems that brings.

The next step is an independant review panel.

A bit of background, my son's behaviour has been challenging at times, due to ADHD, nothing major though, all low level, but it's fair to say he can be a pain. I truly believe that this is the real reason behind the exclusion. He presented them with an opportunity and they leapt on it. I have made arguments regarding his SEN, to no avail.

Please help!

OP posts:
Expelled123 · 06/12/2021 09:58

Thanks again incessantnamechanger - it sounds like it's worth a shot trying to get him an ECHP. I'll take a look at the IPSEA site and start the process. I do believe that his ADHD was a factor, as he has impaired impulse control and struggles with making good decisions. Thanks for your offer of help, I really appreciate it.

OP posts:
TeenMinusTests · 06/12/2021 10:24

Just popping on to say we are in the process of an EHC needs assessment. Applying for one was relatively straightforward, I got a lot of help from the SN Chat board, it is also covered on the SEN board.

It is a bit daunting but there is a lot of advice around to hand hold you.

Imitatingdory · 06/12/2021 10:48

Sadly, for numerous reasons many schools and LAs incorrectly tell parents their DC doesn’t need an EHCP or won’t get one, yet when the parents go on to apply themselves their DC do get an EHCP. Appeal if you are refused.

As well as IPSEA look at SOSSEN.

StaplesCorner · 06/12/2021 18:12

@Expelled123

@ St[lesCorner, what do you mean going at this from the wrong angle? I tried to get hold of IPSEA, but got no response. I'll look into getting him an EHCP, but the school said he didn't need one.
That's what I mean by going at it from the wrong angle. You need to book an appointment with IPSEA, you can also get advice from SOSEN, I said that quite early in the thread but now I see others have and you have taken it on board. When you apply for an EHCP all sorts of things will kick off including him being seen by an Educational psychologist so its well worthwhile, I'm just really surprised you haven't done this some time ago. As if there was another option.
TeenMinusTests · 06/12/2021 18:45

I think it is 'easy' to not think about EHCPs when the school (the experts) are saying it isn't needed (or in our case didn't mention it at all). You assume they are for DC who are 'much worse' than your own.

Grimbelina · 06/12/2021 18:45

I was also told repeatedly that my child did not need an EHCP by his school. They were wrong. I applied for it and it was relatively straightforward (if a lot of work) with help from ISPEA etc. as PPs have said. Is he medicated at the moment? It might be time to review this before he starts a new setting.

Grimbelina · 06/12/2021 18:49

Read your later posts now. Part of our EHCP process was a medical report that stated and supported looking again at ADHD medication. This might help you get this reassessed.

Imitatingdory · 06/12/2021 18:53

As well as pre-booked appointments IPSEA are piloting a call in helpline on Fridays until March.

Ericaequites · 07/12/2021 02:01

@donquixotedelamancha- Even in Texas, you can’t buy guns in supermarkets. They are only sold in sporting goods and specialty stores, and many regulations are involved. America is not quite that Mad Max yet.

donquixotedelamancha · 07/12/2021 07:37

Even in Texas, you can’t buy guns in supermarkets. They are only sold in sporting goods and specialty stores

Walmart, Sam's Club and Sears sell guns, as did Fred Meyer until recently. Does K-Mart still sell them?

Perhaps the confusion is about nomenclature? I think Americans call big supermarkets department stores and reserve the term supermarkets for shops which only sell food?

Ericaequites · 07/12/2021 14:50

Very few Sears and K-Mart stores remain; neither sold much food beyond candy and their cafeterias. WalMart did sell guns; I’m not familiar with Fred Mayer. We are speaking the same language separated by a big pond. All of the above are department stores with extensive sporting good departments, as food is not their main business. Some WalMarts have much larger and more complete grocery departments, but they take up less than half the store. Stories which are nearly all grocery items like Aldi are what most Americans call supermarkets.

MuguetRose · 07/12/2021 18:32

I think this has been dealt with too harshly, and I'm usually on the side of the school on mumsnet threads.

Rivermonsters · 07/12/2021 22:26

Oh well can’t do the time don’t do the crime, boo hoo bad gcses won’t mean you’ll fail in life

Rivermonsters · 07/12/2021 22:31

Sorry if that came off harsh, I’ve experienced the ‘camhs experience’ first hand myself..dealt with addictive behaviours and unpopular opinion, you have to go cold turkey with it, no patches…if you’re driven enough you can succeed without them. Best wishes x

norrland · 10/12/2021 13:28

I almost fell off my chair when I read about the OP's experience!

First of all, snus is not illegal to buy, import, own or use. There are snus products that don't even contain tobacco, just flavoured legal herbs.

Second, snus is considered a less harmful nicotine product (than e.g. cigarettes, vaping etc) and therefore advocated by some as an effective tobacco harm reduction product. Many use it temporarily to stop smoking, like nicotine patches. Earlier this year, UK health minister Joe Churchill promised a post-Brexit, evidence-based gov't review of the ban on the sale of snus by UK-based retailers, which science many believe are flawed. In fact, snus has not only led to Sweden, where snus comes from, boasting the lowest smoking rates in Europe, but more importantly, also reporting the lowest rates of lung cancer across the continent. Heck, just like with cigarettes, most Scandinavian kids have tried snus at least once between the age of 10 and 16, not seldom during a school break. Having said that, snus is still a harmful nicotine product in its own right, containing several poisonous substances that you don't want your young kids to be exposed to for health reasons, let alone addicted.

Third, it's not illegal to carry a product that you believe to be illegal. If you carry a pouch of oregano believing it's illegal, you're not guilty of "intent to possess an illegal substance", that's absolutely ridiculous and a perversion of the law.

Fourth, your son's mental health condition, ADHD, should've been a mitigating factor on this occasion, especially if he wasn’t on the appropriate medication at the time (why wasn't he?). I'm absolutely aghast and disgusted by the school's decision to permanently exclude him, effectively handing him a life-changing sentence, without at least so much as a warning first. He's a 10-year old kid with ADHD for heaven's sake, who can't be considered mature enough to always understand the consequences of his actions, nevermind the world come crashing down on him for having made one little mistake as an impulsive little kid, probably under peer pressure. Seriously people, what are we, Nazis…?! Would it have been the same outcome if he would've been caught with a cigarette in his pocket, should be no difference whatsoever (fully legal, non-controlled product, just age-restricted, not like it's weed or anything).

Fifth, I think you should take this all the way without giving up, preferably with a lawyer by your side, as you shouldn't stand for this old-fashioned, zero-tolerance BS. Having ADHD, your son obviously needs the appropriate care, supervision, attention and medication to make it past the most difficult, impressionable teenage years of his life, when the risk of ending up in the wrong company (where snus would be the least of his problems) is the greatest. However if he copes well on medication, I think you should argue that it's completely wrong and unethical for the school, regardless of their rules, to hand out such a harsh and definitive punishment to such a young child , who's very actions on this occasion could be a (text book) symptom and explained by his medical mental-health condition, and that he, like everyone else, deserves a second chance, under which he also commits to remain at all times under such medication that allows him to cope with all other academic and social requirements of the school. Percentage-wise, there's at least one pupil with ADHD in every class in the country and most of them cope just fine if identified and dealt with – however it's only fair and human to cut these guys a bit of slack during the "adjustment" period. I wonder if media would run with a scoop of a school that comes down with such punity on kids with hidden medical conditions like this (e.g. ADHD, ADD, DAMP, autism, Ausberger, bipolar etc).

Finally, the best of luck to your son on what sounds like a shitty start to the rest of his life.

TeenMinusTests · 10/12/2021 13:34

@norrland : He is year 10, so age 14/15 not 10 years old!

norrland · 10/12/2021 14:37

@TeenMinusTests Well noted, I should've read that a bit more carefully, but it doesn't change my opinion. At that age, the exposure to tobacco products from peers is even more understandable (remember?).

admission · 10/12/2021 16:58

Norrland,
I am sorry but in school exclusion cases if the pupil believes it to be something then that it is how it is expected to be viewed by both the Governing Board Panel and the subsequent Independent Appeal Panel. That is what is said in the training, which I assume has been checked out legally and I have had similar training from 4 different Local Authorities. For the OP to continue to be led to believe that it cannot be treated as what it is alleged to be because it is not, is simply not helping her case to remove the permanent exclusion.

Expelled123 · 10/12/2021 18:08

admission, how does that make any sense though? If I've got a glass of milk and I say it's water, is it water? This is what we're dealing with here. How on earth can I represent my son? How can I argue my case if common sense isn't applied? How do you argue against belief?

My son used a nicotine pouch, age restricted and legal in the UK . Being in posession of a vape is not punisable by permanent exclusion. He was told it was Snus, it was not Snus.

I was told that he presented a 'serious threat' to other students because he used a nicotine pouch. The irony, since he's been at the PRU he's been introduced to violent drug dealers, trying to befriend him, sat next to him in 'class'. He's done virtually no work, he made a wooden reindeer, and was offered a cigarette when out on a break (with staff).

He was doing AS level maths and on course to achieve 7's and 8's in his GCSE's. If people think the punishment fits the crime they need to give their heads a serious wobble.

Feel like I'm screaming into the void.

OP posts:
Expelled123 · 10/12/2021 18:14

Every day he's at that place the other 'students' dig their claw's harder into him, pulling him towards their criminality.

He's not like them, that's fucking obvious.

I can't take him out, because the managed move we so desperately need is being done through the manager of the PRU, she's his voice talking to the other schools that might potentially turn their noses up at him.

I can't believe this is happening. I can't believe people think this is ok. It's so fucking not OK. I'm sick of crying.

OP posts:
Expelled123 · 10/12/2021 18:33

Thank you to everyone who's commented since my last post, I am looking into an EHCP. Thanks for your informative and supportive post norrland, I'll look into the info you've given about Snus, believe me, if I could afford to lawyer up I would!
Thanks MugetRose.
And thanks admission, although I sobbed over your post (and then had a rant!), it's helpful to know what I'm up against in terms of how the panel views this.

It's fair to say that I'm momentarily overcome by utter despair and the apparent hopelessness of it all right at this moment. I'll pick myself up tomorrow. Onwards.

OP posts:
Hopefullywaiting01234 · 10/12/2021 18:50

If you sell paracetamol believing it to be ecstasy tablets then you are committing an offence, it doesn’t matter that the product you are selling is legal but the fact you thought it was an illegal drug an offence has still been committed

Expelled123 · 10/12/2021 19:49

What is the offence?

OP posts:
Sirzy · 10/12/2021 20:08

@Expelled123

What is the offence?
Possession of a banned substance.

I fully get why your struggling but he happily purchased a substance he knew was banned. The fact it turned out not to be is really irrelevant because it’s down to the intent.

girlabouthome · 10/12/2021 20:26

This is ridiculous.
I up until fairly recently (DD BORN) worked for "Big Tobacco" and the launch of several Nic pouch brands in the UK.

Available in all convenience stores and supermarkets, and hugely popular in sports (especially professional football).

They are likely to be mainstream in the next year or two, and it seems a shame the ignorance about this product has affected your son.

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