My son has been permanently excluded

[Expelled123]

Name changed because details are extremely outing.

If there are any experts on here, or if anyone could offer any adice I'd be extremely grateful.

Very briefly. My son used a nicotine pouch in school (he's year 10), they are a legal but age restricted smoking cessation product, in the same way that vapes are. Having legal age restricted products are punishable by fixed exclusion, usually a couple of days.

However, the kid told him it was a banned product called Snus, which is basically chewing tobacco in a pouch.

He has been kicked out, not because it was snus, but because he believed it was snus. All evidence clearly shows it was nicotene pouches.

W.T.A.F???? He's been kicked out because he thought something was something else? How is this even legal?

The Governors upheld the exclusion, even though I coherently fought against the decision with plenty of well researched information.

He's currently at a PRU, I need him out ASAP, it's a hell hole.

I need the permanent exclusion overturned so I can get him into our local catchment school, not an easy move currently as the school can refuse him, or it will be a managed move with all the problems that brings.

The next step is an independant review panel.

A bit of background, my son's behaviour has been challenging at times, due to ADHD, nothing major though, all low level, but it's fair to say he can be a pain. I truly believe that this is the real reason behind the exclusion. He presented them with an opportunity and they leapt on it. I have made arguments regarding his SEN, to no avail.

Please help!

OP I sit on independent appeal panels around exclusions as well as being chair of governors at schools.
Your son has been caught with the substance and it does not matter what it actually was, if your son believed that it was SNUS then it is completely appropriate for the school to permanently exclude on the basis of this belief. You have to recognise that your son deliberately bought the substance to the school knowing it was banned and was totally aware that what he was doing was wrong according to the school's behaviour policy.
The fact that the governors have upheld the exclusion means that a managed move or Fair access protocol is not appropriate at this time. Your son is at the PRU and will remain there until the independent review panel have met. If the review panel agree again with the governors decision then your son is then formally permanently excluded and the LA will then have the responsibility to find him a new school - but not necessarily the one you may want.
As a matter of course you should ask for an SEND expert to be at the review panel. Their responsibility is to tell the panel whether the school have appropriate SEND policies in place but you never know what might come out at the review so it is always worth requesting the SEND expert. However if you argue at the independent review panel that ADHD was the significant factor then I suspect that the response will be that the review is upheld.
Given your situation I would argue at the review panel meeting he knew he was doing something wrong and that he is a fool for doing what he did. His ADHD may have contributed slightly to his stupid behaviour in bringing in the substance. The fact that there is a belief that it is not SNUS you accept is irrelevant at this review panel meeting. However the school is aware that he is not the only one who has "sinned" in this way, he was the one that was caught. You therefore believe that the action of the school was too heavy handed and that a long fixed term exclusion would be more appropriate in the circumstances. Obviously if the school behaviour policy specifically says any drugs is a permanent exclusion then this line of defence is not realistic and in those circumstances I cannot see what your line of defence could be
However you also need to recognise that the review panel only has three possible decisions they can make. They can uphold the permanent exclusion. They can request that the governing board of the school review the evidence submitted or that became available at the review panel meeting or they can quash the GB decision and ask them to reconsider the decision. The later situation can only happen where there has been unfairness or illegality by the school/GB. Nothing that has been said would suggest this is the case. There is no ability of the review panel to remove the permanent exclusion, they can only ask the GB panel to review, who can make any decision they want.
Sorry but I think you need to accept that your son is going to be permanently excluded and you need to make the best of a difficult decision.

I haven’t RTFT. I am a Chair of Governors and experienced in exclusions and Independent Review Panels. I’d be happy to advise, feel free to DM me. I’m out this afternoon so may not reply right away but if I can offer some advice, I will.

@Whiskyinajar your sister should be going mad with the government for seriously underfunding the education system, not schools.
The reason mainstream often fails pupils with SEND including ADHD is due to lack of staff.
In my case, I am managing two children with ADHD, one dyspraxic, one suspected ASD along with a child with significant global delay (think mental age 2) with one part time TA; often I'm single-handed. This is in a KS1 class, so young children who are all needy due to the fact they're only 5 years old! So I probably am failing lots of my pupils which makes me feel awful and demoralised. I try my best and know what interventions / adaptations etc are needed but am largely able to implement as I can only do so much without any support.

@Expelled123

Viviennemary, he's not a constant trouble maker, without going into to much detail, most incidents are stage one bar one (when he ran into the head, interestingly), minor incidents.

Constant low level disruption will prevent others from learning.

Should say 'unable' to implement

@ Da1sycha1n There was a ‘loophole’ to avoid permanent exclusion through an accumulation of exclusion days Or to stop attendance fines/ legal action by withdrawing a child.

Once a child is out of education for two months they have a right to enter under Fair Access Protocol. However, there have been changes to this is recent years to prevent this happening and to ensure that students receive a place at a school which is able to help.

Having attended dozens of Fair Access Protocol meetings, everyone around that table want the best for children and no child would be left without a place by the end of the meeting.

To get a child a place in a PRU is like gold dust and not an easy process at all. They are all over their PAN and have huge demand coming from many directions. The PRU team will be able to advise the best way to move forward in your local area as they all operate differently.

Strange - I could buy Snus in my local supermarket - but not a bottle of wine. Would the exclude him for a cigarette?

Strange - I could buy Snus in my local supermarket - but not a bottle of wine.

I don't think it's availability in your supermarket was at the forefront of the school's mind here. OP is in the UK, where Snus is illegal and wine is sold in supermarkets.

You can buy handguns at the supermarket in the US- they would also result in a permanent exclusion in a UK school.

If you say your son is a pain then maybe this is for the best. It's just not fair on all the other kids, or the teachers, who have to put up with the behaviour. Your son shouldn't be able to impact everyone else's education.
As others have said, try and do something about your son rather than waste your time and energy on what sounds like a legitimate exclusion.

I know of a boy in a similar situation. He’s all set for 8s and 9s in his GCSEs and he’s getting great support at his PRU to achieve them.

Some PRIs are great. Some are not. If they are full of the worst behaved DC with unrecognised SEND they can be awful. Many don’t have great teachers in every subject either.

I would probably accept he will be permanently excluded and make the most of any opportunity to move forward. He’s clearly one of those annoying DC the school couldn’t wait to offload and he gave if you them on a plate.

Phew! Ok, I have read the thread. I can't answer everyone individually, but to answer a few questions:

His behaviour - I have never excused his behaviour to the school, I have always supported the school regarding sanctions. Yes it is low level, although I totally get that it's still unnacceptable, and have never said to him that it was. Until now, I have never allowd ADHD to be an excuse, although I'm justified to believe that it has some bearing on poor decisions.

Stage one concerns are handed out for practically anything, including forgetting books etc.

He struggles to behave, sometimes, in a way that the school deems acceptable due to ADHD. Any parent of a child with ADHD will pretty much understand this. There is way too much info that I would need to relate on this subject to impart, hopefully, a full understanding. It would take a seriously long time to adequately describe his behaviour and the reasons for it.

There is the assumption here that his behaviour was not low level. It was recorded and fed back to me as low level. I was speaking to a member of staff about behaviour concerns, and I mentioned whether there was a chance of him being excluded. She said 'We're a long way off that'. He was permanently excluded a week later due to 'the incident'.

I'm not suggesting that low level is ok, it's not ok, and I understand where everyone's coming from.

'If you are worried about a managed move because you think he won't behave himself for 3 months then it's your son's behaviour that's the problem....' - I am worried, yes, because he has ADHD, and he struggles in ways that NT kids don't. Certain behaviours are just him, others, not so much.

He is not a 'constant trouble maker'.

Yes, he has a formal diagnosis, but no ECHP.

Homeschooling is not really an option.

Thankyou Da1sycha1n

I didn't buy the pouch for him, another student brought it into school. It was a nicotine pouch and my DS was told it was called snus, it wasn't snus.

My anger is directed at both DS and the school.

I definitely do not condone the use of age restricted products, and am seriously disappointed in him. This does not usually result in permanent exclusion though. He has never smoked a cigarette.

I got it wrong in terms of saying 10+ couldn't be excluded, I hold my hands up.

'ADHD does not cause children to be naughty' - it often does actually, depending on your definition of the word 'naughty'. This is a super strict school. Do you have a child with ADHD? If you do, do you know other children with this condition? It is classed as a disibility, related to cognitive function. It doesn't however, affect intelligence.

DS was on course to achieve 7's and 8's in his GCSE's, he was taking AS level maths. All this has been replaced by watching netflix and making wooden reindeer.

No, PRU's are not all bad, but the one DS is at has some seriously challenging students. DS was asked by a student 'Do you sell [drugs]?' on day 2, whilst the student stood outside for a fag break.

Thank you admission, I appreciate your post.

Thanks so much KlopTeeth, I will DM you, thanks for the offer, and thanks everyone who has replied so far, it's really appreciated, and I've read carefully every one.

If you are worried about a managed move because you think he won't behave himself for 3 months then it's your son's behaviour that's the problem....' - I am worried, yes, because he has ADHD, and he struggles in ways that NT kids don't. Certain behaviours are just him, others, not so much.

Sorry if I’ve misread but if your son usually has low level bad behaviour and you’re worried about his behaviour at the PRU then I can tell you I’m almost certain you have nothing to worry about.
As you know most kids at PRUs have awful behaviour so your son will probably look like an angel compared to them!

Do you work?
If not have you asked if he can be homeschooled instead of doing the PRU?

I would also work on getting an EHCP.
I work in an ARB which has kids with additional needs and some behaviour issues. The behaviour is worse than mainstream but nothing like some PRUs are but you need abs EHCP to be accepted.

If your ds is that able with regards maths and academically then this is a great opportunity for him to out into practice the skills he'll need to try and learn.

So the PRU isn't great because it's very high level behaviour.

But your ds can learn. He's able. Tell him to ignore that and work damn hard to gets his GCSEs.

He only needs 5 for college so aim for fewer than he'd do. Buy him the revision and workbooks.

Aim for a gcse in English, maths and both science. That's 4. Then a humanity and possibly another.

Get him to really work hard at home everyday and study.

If he can do all this for the next few weeks and really knuckle down there is no reason a managed move won't work. He'll see for himself what he's capable of and hopefully learn the skills he needs to manage the environment.

This can be turned around but ultimately like with any pupil your ds needs to want to turn it around to be successful.

Do you have a child with ADHD?

No but I have decades of experience with kids with ADHD.

I understand what you mean, and I'm not downplaying the challenges of ADHD, I just think it's important to avoid labelling or excusing kids with it. In my experience ADHD results in poor behaviour if:

1. It's used as an excuse (not saying you are).
2. The teacher doesn't set appropriate work and expectations for a kids needs.
3. It's serious enough that a child can't cope in mainstream without being medicated but meds haven't been sorted.

The right kind of super strict school (i.e. supportive with it) can be brilliant with ADHD but it sounds like this is the wrong sort.

In your position I would still appeal, because I think any school is better than the PRU you describe. Just assume the appeal might not work. If he gets back in I would

I would also be on

Posted too early:

If he gets back in I would be careful about moving him. You'd need to look at what he'd be doing in the new school.

In the meantime I'd be on to the PRU. They get a lot of money to individualise support and clever kids should be able to succeed.

Whatever the outcome, he should download the specs for all his GCSEs and working through the content in his own time now.

@Expelled123 you have my sympathy, my year 11 son has adhd and it most definitely does affect their decision making capabilities - the ‘H’ (hyperactivity) leads to impulsivity and not thinking through consequences.

Our ds was temporarily excluded in year 9 and on three separate occasions in year 10 and I was terrified he’d be permanently excluded. All the incidents involved doing something stupid without fully understanding that it was illegal/dangerous/serious. Whilst we were very fortunate that he didn’t get expelled, I’m actually really glad now that he’s been pulled up for these things as a teenager. Our son has (we think/hope) learned huge lessons from these incidents. Like your son, to a certain extent he took the fall because of his reputation for low level disruption, but we’re actually really glad he was pulled up on these incidents now, rather than later on, at uni/in work where consequences would be much worse.

That doesn’t help you find him a school but I just wanted to suggest that you fully back the school in explaining to him how serious it was and suggest what might happen if he did something like that in a job.

You need to apply for the EHCP immediately; please look on the IPSEA website I think you are going at this from the wrong angle.

@ St[lesCorner, what do you mean going at this from the wrong angle? I tried to get hold of IPSEA, but got no response. I'll look into getting him an EHCP, but the school said he didn't need one.

Thanks crazycrofter, it sounds like you worked hard on your DS, I'm glad he's managed to get through it all. He definitely knows what he did was incredibly stupid.

Look on the ipsea website. As your son has ADHD and has been excluded it's time to get a ehcp.

Thanks donquixote,

In my experience ADHD results in poor behaviour if:

1. It's used as an excuse (not saying you are).

I have always explained that it's not an excuse, but sometimes a factor.

1. The teacher doesn't set appropriate work and expectations for a kids needs.

I think the expectations regarding behaviour were difficult for DS, due to the fact that the school was super strict. He has experienced direct discrimination in class, i.e, sent out for talking, fidgeting etc.

1. It's serious enough that a child can't cope in mainstream without being medicated but meds haven't been sorted.

Not the case here.

The right kind of super strict school (i.e. supportive with it) can be brilliant with ADHD but it sounds like this is the wrong sort.

Yes it is, I wish I'd listened to my gut instinct and moved him.

Thanks incessantnamechanger - I will do.

Appealing for a ehcp feels daunting but it's not. You can do this yourself and I would make this your top priority. Ipsea website will show you how.

There are two tests in law -

may have sen - yes ADHD
May have needs that may require a ehcp - he has been excluded so good proof here too.

The pru should also be helping you to place him and get his SEN needs met. Get onto them to check they are.

I wouldnt listen to people saying it's not his ADHD. He is neuro diverse so it could be the reason.

He is your child and no one wants better for him than you. He needs the assessments that come with assessment for a ehcp. Educational psychologist etc. Even if you dont get a ehcp ( appeal if the la say no assessment as I say you have a good case to win a appeal). He should get on the SEN register. Then he is a bit more protected.

PM me if you want any help with the ehcp process

@ donquioxte, sorry I got this wrong here:

'3. It's serious enough that a child can't cope in mainstream without being medicated but meds haven't been sorted.

Not the case here.'

I can't have read this properly when I put 'not the case here'. DS has been medicated since age 7, but when lockdown happened we weren't able to access the neurodevelopmental team, and we needed to see them because his meds weren't working as he was growing, so we made the decision to stop meds as he wasn't at school and the meds weren't working.

We then bought a house and moved to a different county. The team we were under said that as we had moved counties he had to move to Cahms in our county. It's taken until late October to be able to get an appointment and a new prescription. He then had to have a blood test (another 2 weeks wait) and finally start his meds (3 days after he was permanently excluded).

The meds obviously made a big difference, as his behaviour deteriorated when he started back in September. He was unmedicated up til the point he was excluded. So it's fair to say he doesn't cope well in a mainstream setting unmedicated.