Super strict schools like the Swan in Oxford?

[Deisogn]

We went to see the swan school in Oxford and came away fairly horrified. The no talking in the corridors or halls seemed fairly extreme. The punishment for talking to a friend was isolation which seemed harsh and not in the best interest of the child? I do understand trying minimise disruption but at what cost? They don't stop emotionally developing at 11. Surely all those soft skills come from unstructured interactions. It seems like it would produce very brittle kids and SEN need not apply or they'd spent the entire time in isolation. I wondered what others thought of the super strict school model?

My only knowledge comes via a friend who works in a school that sounds utterly miserable to me. She has to do a regular duty where she stands in a corridor looking for violations of school rules. Uniform things such as wrong trousers, buttons undone, wrong shoes, dyed hair as well as talking. The school seems to be obsessed with the kids all looking alike and hating any individuality.
It seems odd to me that 100% attendance was rewarded with a treat day and names were drawn for a helicopter flight over the town. Not students who’d made most improvement, most effort etc.. but those who’d been lucky enough not to be ill or have a condition that sometimes kept them off school.
I did qualify as a teacher but glad I left fairly quickly if this is what it’s come to. I’d be all in favour of home schooling now.

We homeschool, but I’d be tempted to send my kid to strict school rather than have his lessons constantly disrupted. I was lucky to have gone to a good private school - even there, some minor disruption. DH went to average-good comprehensive and said that every lesson there was messing about and didn’t really learn much - so he’s much less keen than me for kids to go to school (we would give them a choice, but I would prefer if they definitely started secondary and gave up if they didn’t like it).

I’m an immigrant from a culture where there is strict discipline in school and if I got in trouble at school, would be more worried about whether my parents would tell me off more. I feel sorry for teachers - having 30kids in a class - if each of them has 1 class per term where they are doing some ‘innocuous’ messing around - there aren’t going to be that many disruption-free lessons.

Interestingly DH would also be anti strict school as he would consider the rules petty - so would probably prefer home Ed.

Sounds awful! The sort of person who would instigate such strictness would likely be extremely unpleasant

I agree OP. These schools simply don’t develop the whole child. They tend to fear the most boisterous children and try to tame them. It denies them their character and normal development of it. Certainly the chatty ones are not going to thrive. I think children develop by chatting and getting along with adults in an atmosphere of mutual respect. An over strict atmosphere doesn’t allow development of the whole child. It concentrates on classroom teaching and obedience. Great if you want the armed forces for a career but less good if you want to sell something!

I also think parents who like this type of school are not necessarily bothered about the whole development of the child. Teaching at home isn’t the best way for children to mix snd socialise. Home teaching is all about keeping others out and being single minded about your child avoiding the influence of others. Sometimes other DC are funny, engaging, full of ideas, have lots of knowledge and are worth having as friends.

I’m sure there are other schools in Oxford that are normal.

I had a strict home and I’m glad for the self-discipline it taught me. I didn’t particularly see the chatty or cheeky kid in class as amusing - just annoying and disruptive, when I wanted to learn stuff and do well in exams. I wouldn’t want my kid to disrupt other kids or be disrupted themselves. Me and DH got teased for being nerdy. DH was more relaxed in class but I think looking back sees it as wasted time. We went to good uni, have average-good jobs and are fine socially (though on the quiet, nerdy side - which is fine once you’re out of school). I can see why people don’t like it, but personally I don’t think it sounds bad compared to the alternatives. Probably a good private school with small class sizes would be best, but costs are eye watering and probably on the whole not worth it for us. Kids are all different - so I wouldn’t be surprised if different kids suit different schools.

My DD did not go to a school like this, and on balance I wouldn't choose a 'Michaela' type school.
However given how overwhelming she found the corridors at switch over time, I think she would have benefitted from such a rule.

Grim.

The head should really have therapy to find out where their damage came from and whether it can be resolved.

I used to be a secondary school teacher and was horrified by the constant low level disruption to learning, it's just accepted that that's what happens but it's so frustrating to both teachers and pupils. I can see the appeal of super strict Michaela type school to be honest. I think they try to develop soft skills as well through lots of clubs and debate/discussion over lunch. I also think a lot of sen children struggle with the chaos and disruption in classes and actually benefit from clear rules and expectations.

I see the acceptance of schools with strict ethos varies greatly depending on their flavour of ideology and the backgrounds of the children within them. For instance, in NW London, Cardinal Vaughan Memorial School vs King Solomon Academy. I think about why this might be from time to time.
I found this article about King Solomon Academy to be interesting, it seems to have a similar approach to the Swan School

learningspy.co.uk/featured/learned-visit-king-solomon-academy/

@scandikate

I used to be a secondary school teacher and was horrified by the constant low level disruption to learning, it's just accepted that that's what happens but it's so frustrating to both teachers and pupils. I can see the appeal of super strict Michaela type school to be honest. I think they try to develop soft skills as well through lots of clubs and debate/discussion over lunch. I also think a lot of sen children struggle with the chaos and disruption in classes and actually benefit from clear rules and expectations.

But punishing the well-behaved children is not emotionally healthy.

You have to ask why a person would seek to punish all instead of tackling the problem.

Deploying totalitarian principles in a school is concerning. Principles of fairness, liberty, tolerance and justice are hugely important and fundamentals since the enlightenment. This school is oppressive.

DN with SEN absolutely thrived at a super strict school. I’m sure she won’t be the only one as those rules remove or greatly reduce all sorts of trigger points and disruptions that can be problematic for many children with SEN.

And it really doesn’t do children, even the chatty ones any harm to learn that there are some times where it is expected that you need to shut up and be quiet. It’s probably good for the development of their whole personality.

@rrhuth
I totally agree. Most children are absolutely fine. They chat and are well behaved in lessons. Most lessons are conducted with an ethos of mutual respect. The disruptive children are a small minority in most schools.

It’s all about leadership of the head too. A good head ensures they have great teachers who engage the children and don’t accept poor behaviour either. Boot camp schools are not the way forward.

No talking in corridors makes a lot of sense when you understand that other classes are still working/learning. Why should those pupils be disrupted from their trains of thought by children who think it's fine to chatter incessantly, or worse shriek/hoot/yell in the corridors?

Y7 pupils straight from primary really struggle with the whole moving around and corridor thing- it's very overwhelming for most, goodness knows how children with sensory issues cope (well, I know some schools have special allowances whereby they let children with sensory issues go two minutes early to next class to avoid the worst, but that impacts on them in other ways)

Quiet corridors seems very practical and sensible to me (as parent of two children with asd!)

“Home teaching is all about keeping others out and being single minded about your child avoiding the influence of others.”

No it’s not. It’s about following a child’s own interests and learning in ways that aren’t limited to sitting in class. Home schooled children generally attend multiple social groups and events, and have a wide range of activities and experiences.

I dont know the Swan but there's a super strict school like that local to me. I felt the same as you when I viewed it, certainly wasnt right for my (very well behaved but anxious) child, who went to a "normally" strict school instead. But actually the super strict school is very popular and has a proportionately high number of children with asd and ADHD. I guess the very structured rules based system works well for some.

Disruptive students really aren't a minority in schools though. I've worked in lots of outstanding schools, observed outstanding teachers and low level disruption is often the norm. I don't think super strict schools work in all areas for all pupils but if you look at Michaela pupils who are the first generation to go to university are doing amazingly in their exams and going to amazing universities so they must be doing something right.

I think good behaviour and conformity shouldn't be conflated though. Why can't we have high expectations of behaviour, quiet corridors etc. without super strict uniform? I appreciate there are some benefits to uniform but it seems incredibly outdated and authoritarian now when I look at schooling in the rest of the world.

I don't know the Swan or what its catchment is like so am more speaking generally...

I think it is sadly quite a privileged problem (and not saying that in a patronising way, I didn't understand it until I worked in education and social care) to not understand these schools.

Really sadly behaviour, bullying, gangs and abuse is extremely common in many schools, especially where there is a high proportion of students from poor backgrounds. The corridors between lessons are where constant issues happen from low level bullying to physical violence/fights. It is where extreme time is wasted and children end up late for lessons hyped up and angry about what just happened in the corridor.

For some schools it is not an option or choice but the only way to make it safe and make sure learning happens.

Pressed send too soon.

Often in these schools there are children with barely any boundaries or stability at home - more often than not due to no fault of the parents, just really awful circumstances or cycles or deprivation and abuse.

Boundaries in school are not cruel or withdrawing human rights, they are enabling children to feel safe, learn, have calm, a reassuring routine and security. They then can learn and see good behaviour. In turn the school can educate them, help them have ambition and open opportunities for them and try and stop that cycle continuing.

Sounds awful! Anyone who’s tried to work from home whilst also homeschooling will testify that learning to cope with low levels of distraction and maintain your productivity is a life skill!

@InCahootswithOrwell

DN with SEN absolutely thrived at a super strict school. I’m sure she won’t be the only one as those rules remove or greatly reduce all sorts of trigger points and disruptions that can be problematic for many children with SEN.

And it really doesn’t do children, even the chatty ones any harm to learn that there are some times where it is expected that you need to shut up and be quiet. It’s probably good for the development of their whole personality.

I was just going to say something like this.

My daughter has ASD and it sounds like she would love this sort of environment. She loves rules. Hates disruption and noise. She is academic and gets so distressed when there is bad behaviour in class that she can hear through her ear defenders that stops her working. (She's primary age atm so still little).

Lots of children with SEN, those who struggle to regulate their emotions and behaviour, would struggle in this environment. I'm confident that mine wouldn't.

No talking in the corridors between lessons doesn't really seem that extreme. I suppose it depends on the size of the school, but surely they're not walking in the corridor for any great length of time? So, we're talking asking children aged 11+ to be quiet for two or three minutes?

I'm assuming they can speak to each other at break/lunch though. If they have to be silent at those times, then I agree that is mad.

I know someone whose neurotypical child attends The Swan and they like it.

The only problem I can see having had a quick look at their website for my autistic child would be the family dining vegetarian only hot food thing. Ban on packed lunches. She'd struggle with that, well she couldn't eat it.

Other than that she'd love the structure and rules.

I really like that they do a longer school day but with 'homework' and extra curricular activities done during that, so no homework needed at home.

Maybe if children were better behaved generally there wouldn't be a need for such strict settings.