Super strict schools like the Swan in Oxford?

[Deisogn]

We went to see the swan school in Oxford and came away fairly horrified. The no talking in the corridors or halls seemed fairly extreme. The punishment for talking to a friend was isolation which seemed harsh and not in the best interest of the child? I do understand trying minimise disruption but at what cost? They don't stop emotionally developing at 11. Surely all those soft skills come from unstructured interactions. It seems like it would produce very brittle kids and SEN need not apply or they'd spent the entire time in isolation. I wondered what others thought of the super strict school model?

It sounds great to me. A relaxed atmosphere where kids can chat freely to each other/teachers is wonderful in a school with lots of teachers and small classes. In most state schools though, it means constant low-level disruption. There's nothing wrong with learning that there is a time and place for your freedom of expression. Presumably teachers in these schools still invite discussion in class when appropriate. Corridor thing doesn't seem like a big deal to me, as long as they can chat at break time.

@Bananabrush

It sounds great to me. A relaxed atmosphere where kids can chat freely to each other/teachers is wonderful in a school with lots of teachers and small classes. In most state schools though, it means constant low-level disruption. There's nothing wrong with learning that there is a time and place for your freedom of expression. Presumably teachers in these schools still invite discussion in class when appropriate. Corridor thing doesn't seem like a big deal to me, as long as they can chat at break time.

What is happening in that school is oppression.

Western democracies are built on the principle you are free unless there is good reason not to be - and this was a core principle in Britain before many other places.

It is so important that we maintain the commitment to freedom that made Britain one of the greatest countries to live in.

It scares me how many people advocate low-level totalitarianist policies. The school's approach is aligned to totalitarian Chinese approaches, not liberal democracy.

From a parent’s POV the school sounds bloody marvellous. The ‘next generation salesmen’ aren’t entertaining in lessons, they’re distracting and tedious, and waste everyone’s time. There are times for group exercises in a lesson. Chirping in outside of that is not funny or cheeky, it’s poor behaviour. But if the parents find it endearing and something to be encouraged and not stifled then that’s probably why the school needs to be so hard to get a reasonable level of behaviour. Shockingly some of us want our children to learn from the teacher not listen to Cheeky Chappy’s so funny commentary. There’s plenty of time for that at lunch and break, and after school. My kids get 5 hrs of lessons a day. 5 hours out of 24, so that’s

I don’t think it’s totalitarian if it is proportionate to the situation. Crucially, they’re not telling them what to think or restricting their ability to debate in an appropriate context.

We have been renowned for our commitment to democracy at the same time as having extremely strict schools, including corporal punishment, so I don’t think the two are really related. You could argue that because I tell my kid to go to bed that I’m running a totalitarian regime. In fact I’m acting on her behalf in her best interests- this is what decent parents and schools do.

I don’t agree that these schools are acting in the best interests of all their pupils though. Obviously I would have avoided such places for my DC.

Most DC like a chat and know to stop when the teacher is teaching. Most schools get decent results and deal with difficult children appropriately. Good heads know how to ensure teachers can teach. It’s a management issue and it shouldn’t be confused with draconian rules. I see no evidence that most children in most schools are not decent human beings. The few that are problematic are not accommodated by these schools are they? They wouldn’t last 5 minutes.

I would also say that maybe most parents want DC to learn and know they can have a chat with friends. They like a welcoming school. School lessons tend to end at the same time so I don’t see why chatting between lessons is a crime. Over emphasis on uniform is also a cheap shot. Teachers and staff would be better employed doing something useful.

Just because DC go to university of doesn’t mean they are well rounded people. These DC would have gone to university from another school.

We had a no talking in corridors rule (apart from break times etc) when I was at school. We were all told very firmly in Yr 7 that it was because the older girls often had double lessons and didn't want to be disturbed. We all respected it (for the most part) as it made sense and didn't seem draconian.

What good girls you were? We had way more spark at my grammar school!

Most DC like a chat and know to stop when the teacher is teaching. Most schools get decent results and deal with difficult children appropriately

Sadly I think ‘most’ state secondary teachers would disagree. You’re right that it comes down to the strength of the SMT though.

And there’s a double standard at play- feisty, back in the day in a grammar school = spark (your interpretation, not the teacher’s). Feisty, modern day in a comprehensive = loud & disruptive, not your words but that is the reality. Much the same as absent middle class parenting = laissez-faire, while absent working class parenting = neglect.

Is it true that all the staff at The Swan are young too? No older - more experienced - teaching staff?

@SockFluffInTheBath
So you actually think no state school children are pleasant and behave well?? I think the majority are fine young people. It’s actually about time the majority were respected. I don’t think DC have changed that much!

I would hate to send DC to a school like that. It would bring out my inner rebel. There is nothing more stifling in education than strict adherence to petty and pointless rules. It doesn't improve grades or happiness or critical thinking. What's the point?

@TizerorFizz sorry, you’ll have to show me where I said that. Sadly, low level disruption is the norm in most state schools- ‘spirited’ or ‘cheeky’ kids needing the last word or refusing to show basic manners because, well, who outside of the classroom will make them? Sounds to me like the SMT at this school have it the right way up.

@Bananabrush

I don’t think it’s totalitarian if it is proportionate to the situation. Crucially, they’re not telling them what to think or restricting their ability to debate in an appropriate context.

We have been renowned for our commitment to democracy at the same time as having extremely strict schools, including corporal punishment, so I don’t think the two are really related. You could argue that because I tell my kid to go to bed that I’m running a totalitarian regime. In fact I’m acting on her behalf in her best interests- this is what decent parents and schools do.

It is about negative and positive liberty, these schools have no place in a liberal democracy.

As I say, I'm scared by how many people are illiberal. It absolutely is totalitarian to impose blanket behaviour rules like that.

Your point about parenting is ridiculously irrelevant, I hate arguing on here but parenting has nothing to do with it.

You will have to prove that low level disruption is the norm in most state schools @SockFluffInTheBath
You really don’t seem to like children.

I simply don’t believe it. Ofsted don’t report this as far as I can see.

@Suzanne999

My only knowledge comes via a friend who works in a school that sounds utterly miserable to me. She has to do a regular duty where she stands in a corridor looking for violations of school rules. Uniform things such as wrong trousers, buttons undone, wrong shoes, dyed hair as well as talking. The school seems to be obsessed with the kids all looking alike and hating any individuality. It seems odd to me that 100% attendance was rewarded with a treat day and names were drawn for a helicopter flight over the town. Not students who’d made most improvement, most effort etc.. but those who’d been lucky enough not to be ill or have a condition that sometimes kept them off school. I did qualify as a teacher but glad I left fairly quickly if this is what it’s come to. I’d be all in favour of home schooling now.

Either the helicopter thing is common or your friend works at a school I removed my DS with SEN needs from!

@TizerorFizz I qualified as a secondary teacher 17 years ago, and I like teenagers very much thank you. I haven’t documented every instance of a non-SEND pupil deliberately disrupting a lesson. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence on MN from teachers discussing falling behaviour standards. I imagine you think you sound razor-sharp on here demanding to see the proof, but you’re simply coming across as the kind of parent who encourages ‘sparky’ disruption in the classroom.

I think there was a thread about someone complaining that a teacher wouldn’t do science practicals any more due to someone squirting milk in another kid’s eye plus another kid jeering plus hiding safety glasses. That kind of behaviour isn’t really v safe and it sucks for the other kids. I showed DH - and he said that kind of behaviour was pretty standard at his state school. Maybe there are less disruptive kids at grammar school due to 11+? I went to selective private school and there was a bit of disruption, but nowhere near what DH had.

I think the worst cases are highlighted. The fact that the majority of lessons happen without issues isn’t newsworthy, so to speak. Anyone who thinks these rules suit the average decent child is wrong.

Clearly these suit some pupils - and some teachers. Teachers I know were horrified having been for interview there at the rigidity of teaching plans - no space for creativity whatsoever, entirely blank wall policy etc.

@Francounder
I think your word “creativity” is key. It’s not just the creativity of teachers that would be reduced I think.

It seems children who need a very quiet calm atmosphere with clear directions might be suited by these schools. But that’s quite a small minority that’s always amplified on MN. Other children need a different approach to thrive in my opinion and our universities are full of DC who have been to standard schools and achieved highly.

*I don't know the Swan or what its catchment is like so am more speaking generally...

I think it is sadly quite a privileged problem (and not saying that in a patronising way, I didn't understand it until I worked in education and social care) to not understand these schools.

Really sadly behaviour, bullying, gangs and abuse is extremely common in many schools, especially where there is a high proportion of students from poor backgrounds. The corridors between lessons are where constant issues happen from low level bullying to physical violence/fights. It is where extreme time is wasted and children end up late for lessons hyped up and angry about what just happened in the corridor.

For some schools it is not an option or choice but the only way to make it safe and make sure learning happens.*

I agree with this, l went to a poor comprehensive and as a quiet child who was shy but keen to learn l ended up hiding in most classes as it was too loud and disruptive. I was desperate to leave school as a result which was a terrible shame.
I would have loved strict discipline in class in class and corridor silence.

Hence my Dcs have gone to strict schools, there is very little disruption, yet they are still treated with warmth and respect by their teachers, but the rules are enforced, they are both confident, learning extremely well and generally happy.

We are sadly breeding a generation of largely undisciplined people.
I see it in the workforce constantly and that will severely disadvantage the UK for the future.

My eldest is at a Michaela type school - they get pettier with the rules every term. Drives me bonkers. All the secondaries in our area are like it though, so we don’t have much choice!

Where is the evidence that there are gangs and bullying in most schools? How do quiet corridors snd school uniform stop this? These strict school attract a certain type of parent who think other children are monsters. They are not. It’s really sad when all schools in an area are like this. I’ve not noticed any indiscipline in the workplace. Where? Do you mean working from home? Why do we think younger people are so awful? I don’t know any younger person like this.

It is worth reading The Battle Hymn of the Tiger Teachers, written by the HT and teachers frim the Michaela school, about this approach.
The aim is that kids learn through the consequences/ punishments not to disrupt their own and others' learning AT ALL, so that minimum learning time is lost and everyone can focus in lessons and get the maximum possible from their education.
As some PPs have said, it is seen as an equality issue. You, or your children may be able to chat and mess around a little in corridors and lessons but still do okay in exams and interviews. For other children, who may have other odds stacked against them outside school, this time in school is the only chance they get to have options in life.
Michaela, to my mind, has been an unquestionable success, even though the approach still seems so alien to someone steeped in UK mainstream schooling culture.

What good girls you were? We had way more spark at my grammar school!

I think this really sums up the lack of insight many of us have into a lot of state schools. It is not about the naice middle class states people move house to go to or the grammar schools with fiesty, ambitious girls who might be 'a little rowdy' from time to time. These schools are about a big chunk of children who haven't had the stability, boundaries or had behaviour modelled to them by parents.

With these children, just chatting to your friends or being a little rowdy is not a bit of fun that stops at the classroom door. Similarly, skiving a lesson to hide behind the shed in the playground once, would be skiving school and getting involved with gangs. Peer pressure to get your tummy button pierced would be instead peer pressure to get involved with a fight or genuine crime.

There is a huge difference and empowering these children is not giving them a liberal approach to have free speech and a school where the boundaries are blurred. Empowering these children is giving them a safe, ordered environment where the pressures to get into negative behaviours are physically removed.

These schools aren't cold places though. They have the basics in place so there is then lots of room for real relationships, warm teachers and lots and lots of genuine praise and conversation.

As well as Battle Hymn of the Tiger Teacher, I would first recommend 'To Miss With Love' by the Michaela head. It is about the first schools she worked in which drove her to creating the strict, silent corridor approach for her school.