IB or A Levels

[Veronica25]

What are people experience of IB or A levels and their opinion? how do they impact work and university choices?

DD is looking at Sixth Forms and doesn't know yet what she would like to do as a career. She enjoys various subjects including DT, Geography, Maths, Chemistry, Spanish, have thought of economics and business but researched them yet.

I would be grateful for opinion on both.

OP - Your DC is looking at very similar IB subjects to my DS did. His IB teacher warned him that IB maths is narrower than A level but goes deeper and becomes more like further maths. My son is an able maths student (got an 9) but was warned that it would be more difficult to get a 7 in IB than an A* in A level. And given that for some of the courses he was considering he would need a 7 in IB but only an A at A Level, that seemed a risk not worth taking.

Also if your DC is looking at STEM subjects in the top unis, my DD( who is at Oxford doing a STEM subject) said that her friends who took IB had a lot of gaps in their knowledge compared to those who did A level maths and further maths. They had either done pure maths or applied maths but not both and I think she said there was little or no mechanics in IB. This created extra pressure for them as they had to do a lot of work to catch up.

In my view many courses at the top UK universities are set up to value deep knowledge in a focused area especially for STEM courses. The IB works better in international universities who follow a wider liberal arts regime or for those UK courses that don’t build on previous knowledge of a subject such a business studies or where breadth is helpful such as international studies.

It’s a real shame because my DS loved the ethos and breadth of IB but the risks to him (with his SEN and for the courses he wants) were too high so he opted for A levels.

@Dancingdreamer

OP - Your DC is looking at very similar IB subjects to my DS did. His IB teacher warned him that IB maths is narrower than A level but goes deeper and becomes more like further maths. My son is an able maths student (got an 9) but was warned that it would be more difficult to get a 7 in IB than an A* in A level. And given that for some of the courses he was considering he would need a 7 in IB but only an A at A Level, that seemed a risk not worth taking.

Also if your DC is looking at STEM subjects in the top unis, my DD( who is at Oxford doing a STEM subject) said that her friends who took IB had a lot of gaps in their knowledge compared to those who did A level maths and further maths. They had either done pure maths or applied maths but not both and I think she said there was little or no mechanics in IB. This created extra pressure for them as they had to do a lot of work to catch up.

In my view many courses at the top UK universities are set up to value deep knowledge in a focused area especially for STEM courses. The IB works better in international universities who follow a wider liberal arts regime or for those UK courses that don’t build on previous knowledge of a subject such a business studies or where breadth is helpful such as international studies.

It’s a real shame because my DS loved the ethos and breadth of IB but the risks to him (with his SEN and for the courses he wants) were too high so he opted for A levels.

Thank you. It does seem a bit risky to go for the IB; which is unfortunate as it seems like a great qualification.

I was looking at some university requirements and found the following information for engineering for Cambridge; I am sure there are lots more but just wanted to have an idea:

Typical offers and requirements
A Level: AAA
IB: 40-42 points, with 776 at Higher Level
Other qualifications: See Entrance requirements and International qualifications.

Required by all Colleges: A Level/IB Higher Level Mathematics* and Physics
Required by some Colleges: A Level/IB Higher Level in a third science/mathematics subject, STEP (STEP 2 is likely to be requested by Peterhouse – see the College website for details)

Does this mean that DD will have to choose Physics A level if she wants to do Engineering. She doesn't like Physics so perhaps Engineering is no an option for her.

I can't believe how early they have to make decisions about career in the UK, your GCSEs impact your A levels and A levels your university choices. So basically she needs to know what she wants to do age 14, or at least not later than 16.

Does this mean that DD will have to choose Physics A level if she wants to do Engineering. She doesn't like Physics so perhaps Engineering is no an option for her.

It's a bit like recent threads about DC who want to do Economics degrees without Maths A level, or Medicine without Chemistry. Not completely impossible, but it really limits your options.

I would suggest your DD has a look at some uni websites and sees what A levels they ask for courses she thinks might interest her.

Both routes are valuable and impressive.

With IB you do 6 subjects and cannot opt out of English and Maths so if you hate those subjects you still have to continue with them.
Of course you cannot study those 6 subjects to anything like the depth of 3 A levels.

Since A levels were reformed about 5 years ago they are a lot harder with a lot more content. They were reformed in collaboration with universities. So the advantage of A levels is that there is much more choice, you can focus on your 3 favourite subjects and 99% of level 3 qualifications are A levels so universities in the U.K. are fully set up for these.

I was also told a few years ago that if you do higher IB Maths the level isn’t sufficient to study Maths at university and so you have to do an additional bridging course to get you up to speed. I’m not sure if that is still the case.

@Veronica25

I was looking at some university requirements and found the following information for engineering for Cambridge; I am sure there are lots more but just wanted to have an idea:

Typical offers and requirements
A Level: AAA
IB: 40-42 points, with 776 at Higher Level
Other qualifications: See Entrance requirements and International qualifications.

Required by all Colleges: A Level/IB Higher Level Mathematics* and Physics
Required by some Colleges: A Level/IB Higher Level in a third science/mathematics subject, STEP (STEP 2 is likely to be requested by Peterhouse – see the College website for details)

Does this mean that DD will have to choose Physics A level if she wants to do Engineering. She doesn't like Physics so perhaps Engineering is no an option for her.

I can't believe how early they have to make decisions about career in the UK, your GCSEs impact your A levels and A levels your university choices. So basically she needs to know what she wants to do age 14, or at least not later than 16.

To put this into context as regards UCAS points, the A level requirement is 160 UCAS points. IB higher level of 776 is also 160 UCAS points, but is only 20 IB points counting towards the 40-42 required. Therefore a minimum further 20 IB points need to come from the standard level subjects or TOK/Extended essay. Assuming the 20 points are 776 at standard level, that’s an additional 80 UCAS points making the standard offer for A Level 160 UCAS points and IB 240 UCAS points. An additional challenge for IB students is that they have to do maths, English, a science, a humanity/social science and another language. If they are weaker in one area, eg maths or a language, they may have to make vast effort to get a 6 or 7 which could end up to the detriment of their higher level subjects. As I said upthread, for an education I’d recommend the IB, but for uni entry, especially Oxbridge, I’d recommend A level

@cauliflowersqueeze

Both routes are valuable and impressive.

With IB you do 6 subjects and cannot opt out of English and Maths so if you hate those subjects you still have to continue with them.
Of course you cannot study those 6 subjects to anything like the depth of 3 A levels.

Since A levels were reformed about 5 years ago they are a lot harder with a lot more content. They were reformed in collaboration with universities. So the advantage of A levels is that there is much more choice, you can focus on your 3 favourite subjects and 99% of level 3 qualifications are A levels so universities in the U.K. are fully set up for these.

I was also told a few years ago that if you do higher IB Maths the level isn’t sufficient to study Maths at university and so you have to do an additional bridging course to get you up to speed. I’m not sure if that is still the case.

My DS did FM and maths A level, his schoolmates also doing higher maths for the IB. He’s currently doing STEM at Oxbridge. His view is that the IB syllabus is far narrower than maths and FM, but goes into greater depths in its topics. However he believes that HL maths is more difficult than FM, as there are far greater time pressures in the exams.

@carelessdad

Of my 3 kids, 2 did IB and 1 did A Level. All went to top universities. IMHO the IB is a vast amount more work, but the way in which the subjects are approached and the student has to respond in exam questions is a better education and certainly leaves the kids better prepared for university. However, Oxbridge doesn’t reflect the greater challenges of the IB in its offers (looking at comparisons of UCAS points required from either qualification, so its ‘easier’ to get in with fewer UCAS points from A Levels). As regards subject content, there was one common subject between an IB higher level and an A Level kid. From their discussions afterwards, both syllabuses were broadly similar and neither thought the other’s qualification was easier. So for an education, I’d recommend the IB, but looking solely at uni entrance, I’d recommend A Level.

This is a very good summary. Did bilingual IBD in the naughties (long story, don't ask!) in a shared boarding house, where others took A-levels. We all felt that the IB was a lot more taxing and most universities didn't recognise or appreciate the extra work. Lots of cautionary tales in my year group. This seems to have changed in the US (most top US unis highly value IBD now) but my impression is that UK unis still don't recognise or appreciate the extra work involved in IBD. For them they just want specialists from day 1 and consider the SLs extra- except they don't as the total IB score is an important consideration.

Fully agree however that for a bright, motivated effortlessly "straight A" student it doesn't really matter. For them it comes down to a heavier timetable of a marathon vs possibility of a later choice.

In my view however for the vast majority of average students (below top 10%) with top UK uni ambitions, A-levels is by far the safest choice.

For the top student with top US/European uni ambitions (and motivation) the IB is probably worth the stretch if you are fairly certain that DC will not be distracted at any point in the critical age (16-18) as there's no option to coast and cram. A 40+ IBD requires a high level of maturity (either that, or a very supportive school/parent) which most pple at that age don't possess in my view.

In our case DS is a top student in his year but even for him (if his current school were to offer both) I would still advise him to try to make up his mind early and do the A-levels. Much less anxiety and a safer path, when you think about all the distractions faced by 16-18 year olds.

Sorry to keep poking my nose in on this thread but to add to the previous poster’s comments. My son is full on busy with 3 A levels, an EPQ and his sport. However for his friends who previously had relatively few extra curriculars to put on their CV, the IB has been perfect because the CAS component gives them a “forced”extra curricular activity which adds to their academics. There is no way my DS (who trains nearly every evening for his sport) would have had the time to balance his sporting commitments with an IB. He needs the timetable gaps he gets with A levels to keep on top of his A level work.