IB or A Levels

[Veronica25]

What are people experience of IB or A levels and their opinion? how do they impact work and university choices?

DD is looking at Sixth Forms and doesn't know yet what she would like to do as a career. She enjoys various subjects including DT, Geography, Maths, Chemistry, Spanish, have thought of economics and business but researched them yet.

I would be grateful for opinion on both.

I studied the IB in the 90s at a state school. It was unusual then in the state sector and like a previous poster said, if you fail one subject, you fail the whole thing. I got the grand total of 27 points. Not good!

In my late teens and 20s people were pretty interested to hear about it when they saw it on my CV. Admissions tutors were very interested, I guess because it was pretty rare to find a state school studying the IB back then. Despite my horrible grades, I was admitted to my first choice university. Oh, and the extended essay was great prep for the undergraduate dissertation.

Oh, and the extended essay was great prep for the undergraduate dissertation.

How long is the extended essay? Longer than the 6,000 word geography NEA that DD wrote for her A level?

The IB wouldn't have suited DD. She was more than happy to just study three A level subjects and would have struggled with the IB. She is very science orientated, and is currently in her third year of a STEM degree.

Of my 3 kids, 2 did IB and 1 did A Level. All went to top universities. IMHO the IB is a vast amount more work, but the way in which the subjects are approached and the student has to respond in exam questions is a better education and certainly leaves the kids better prepared for university. However, Oxbridge doesn’t reflect the greater challenges of the IB in its offers (looking at comparisons of UCAS points required from either qualification, so its ‘easier’ to get in with fewer UCAS points from A Levels). As regards subject content, there was one common subject between an IB higher level and an A Level kid. From their discussions afterwards, both syllabuses were broadly similar and neither thought the other’s qualification was easier.
So for an education, I’d recommend the IB, but looking solely at uni entrance, I’d recommend A Level.

And one of my IB kids said that they did 10% of the work in first year university that they did in either of the IB years. An exaggeration no doubt, but certainly how they felt.

@carelessdad

And one of my IB kids said that they did 10% of the work in first year university that they did in either of the IB years. An exaggeration no doubt, but certainly how they felt.

It probably depends on the subject. DD's biomedical sciences degree involved several hours of lectures, seminars and lab practicals every week in her first year. Her friends doing humanities degrees didn't have anything like as many contact hours or as much work set.

Then covid hit, and the lecturers were't constrained to 50 minute lectures any more, and they often lasted 1.5 - 2 hours. She had 27 lectures in one week in her second year!

@bravepotatoes
A secondary modern with IB only? How do all DC access this at a secondary modern? Or is it actually highly selective?!

@TizerorFizz They do the IB career programme rather than the diploma programme. I don't know a huge amount about it, but my understanding is that it has more vocational aspects than the diploma IB, but still has the breadth and other IB elements.

And no, it's not selective at all.

The career IB doesn't give you much if you like humanities. Forces you into a career choice at 16! Accounting, Art and Design, Engineering and Finance were the choices at the 6th form we looked at once.

As I say, I don't know much about it. It's a very popular school though, so it's clearly not deterring people. Also, it raises the point that the 'intellectual snobbery' associated with the IB that someone mentioned earlier is quite a UK thing. I think in other countries the breadth of the IB is more of a general educational philosophy - it's not just the most academically able who take it.

Oh I think it's probably great if you are interested in going down one of those paths.

I thought everyone agreed we are talking about the IB diploma. This gives more choice for students who want to continue with a broader spectrum of subjects and do not know what career path they want. The career based one is directly the opposite of what we are talking about in many respects. I live in a grammar county and I can assure you no secondary modern could ever offer the IB diploma. They simply don’t have the DC capable of doing it in any numbers. Or the money!

Our (indie academic) school has decided 3 A levels plus an epq/core maths/language Delft/AS in a couple of subjects plus extra curricular sport/music/art/entrepreneurship produce a broader, happier student so have done away with the IB. That's their logic anyway and still getting plenty into top unis so either approach works.

I did IB albeit a billion years ago. I was an all rounder but it was lots of work and teachers who taught both said it was more exacting. At the time most universities didn’t understand it so offers were odd - too low too high or odd combinations compared to their Alevel asks.

It's great for those going onto arts and humanities at university or subjects that don't require a prerequisite a level (not mfl though) as it's broad. Not so great for sciences ad they are not taught to such depth so don't have prerequisite knowledge. Suits some students not others learning style wise

Should add our local 6th form college offers it but it does have 4500 students so can offer a very broad range of options

If you take the IB diploma the prerequisite A level requirement is just replaced with an HL subject requirement. My ds’s course required A level maths grade A minimum or HL maths 5 points minimum.
Many of my ds’s cohort went on to stem degrees in UK so IB does not seem to be a barrier to entry.

OP, I wanted to add that I too come from an international background ( am an expatriate ) and I do know US unis like the IB. Though this doesn't mean they don't take A level students. Just that they like all rounders and it is easy to demonstrate that with the IB. You may not be considering US unis but on the off chance....

If I were you, I would also look carefully at UK unis offers for IB and A levels. Some make very high offers for the IB, some do not. The other thing to consider is which HL subjects your child may take and the workload involved. DS friends who have taken HL Maths, Physics and Computer Science are having a hard time; others who have taken slightly less punishing subjects at HL are doing better.

@TizerorFizz

Probably the same one that Temporaryanonymity went to as they have been offering IB for around 30 years. It's just outside Cambridge if you're interested in googling.

Plenty of US offers this year (A level).

IB doesn't seem to have any advantages other than being broader than just 3 A levels.

There are a tiny number of state schools offering IB. Very large 6th form colleges but few schools with, say, 300-500 in a 6th form could offer it on top of A levels and BTecs. Most comprehensives are not full of DC who could manage it. In my view it’s not worth a long commute to get IB over A levels.

The Cambridgeshire school mentioned above has a lot of new DC in the 6th form. Especially international DC. It therefore seems that a number of pupils might have to leave if they are not academically strong enough for IB. It’s not a selective school for y7, but I’m interested to know if pupils “select” themselves out at 6th form. Ofsted mention SEND 6th form pupils have different provision and GCSEs start in y9 thus diminishing the breadth of the curriculum offered in y9. Ofsted want to see this changed as pupils are not offered the national curriculum in y9. So broader in the 6th form and narrower elsewhere!!

I’m interested to know if pupils “select” themselves out at 6th form

Well, sort of but don't they for all 6th form choices? The provision in Cambridge and surrounding areas is pretty good. We don't have the grammar system so no state before 6th form is selective. Students tend to choose 6th forms based on their requirements. That may well be A-levels, especially for those who want to go STEM heavy at Uni and there are a good range of technical 6th forms as well. For my humanities child who is also very good at maths and wants a specific career, IB is a good choice. For others, they might choose the 6th form which is well known for its Arts programme, or its Sports programme. I don't actually think one is better than the other, I think different qualifications suit different people. We are lucky here that we get that choice.

Very few DC select themselves out of grammar 6th forms. But yes, where there’s a myriad of choice and options, it’s great. Less great where there’s not. But even Ofsted seem to suggest it’s the go to school for international students.

We looked at IB for my indecisive eldest DS who wanted to keep their options open academically. He was really tempted as he loved the breadth and whole ethos behind IB. In the end, however, we discounted it because if you are really strong in one area eg arts subjects but not maths and sciences, it is really hard to get the grades you need to get the overall IB score you need for top universities. Many are asking for a minimum of 38 points which means getting 6 and above in all the subjects across the board. Not easy if you are not a natural linguist etc. And the demands in grades for the HL subjects at some unis seemed so high compared to A levels eg asking for 7 in HL maths (which is widely accepted as more difficult than A level Maths) when only an A is required in A level.

My son, a keen sportsman, also thought that the extra, and prescriptive, demands of CAS would clash with the demands of his sport. Then if he failed this or any part of the programme, he failed the whole IB. With A level he could do the extra curriculars he wanted and there was no pass fail associated with this. And if he failed an A level, he still held the others.

IB also promotes that IB students perform better at university (by proportions of top class degrees) however, the data and evidence shows that IB students tend to have achieved higher grades than A level students on entry (which probably says something about the entry requirements universities are asking for from IB students). When you compare students with the same UCAS score, the IB students don’t actually perform significantly better.

@Dancingdreamer
I think it’s difficult measuring success by first class degrees too. It wholly depends on university attended. As I mused above, the IB suits very intelligent all rounders who seek out schools offering the qualification. They have the advantage of being bilingual as evidenced by Ofsted at the Cambridgeshire school. They might have very intellectual parents too! The DC who couldn’t achieve very highly elect not to do the IB and change schools. So it’s a bit like saying grammar school DC do better then secondary modern DC. Of course they do.