Calling teachers - what could this comment mean?

[Faultymain5]

My daughter came home from school and I had to sign a sheet in her exercise book.

Firstly I suspect my daughter has APD (since primary school) and have been going backwards and forwards with the various schools/GPS all telling us they can’t do anything unless the other does something. We’ve given her tutors for her problem areas so she can at least keep up. But can’t do it for all.

Anyway she took a history test which she has been “revising” for for a couple weeks.

On the form she brought home today she has to write an explanation of what she did and what went wrong. it shows where she has put in the box that she used the revision sheet provided, understood some of what was on the sheet and memorised some of her notes. She also says she thought she could have focused more to have done better.

All this seems fine. The result was on her, but I’m aware of the time she took out to “revise” and leaving early for homework club in the mornings. I’m also aware she is a bit of a people pleaser.

I started looking through the work that was marked. The comments seemed fair up until the point where the teacher says “Learn how to start a paragraph”. Is this how some teachers deal with children? (nothing changed since my day) or is that comment helpful to a person if they don’t know how to write a paragraph?

Obviously I have to write that I’ve seen the test and the comments and all I can think is if the teacher talks to the kids this way regularly (my daughter has been complaining for a while, which I haven’t paid much attention to admittedly - new school, bedding in period), then no wonder she wants to drop history (used to be her favourite subject in the old school).

Surely if she needs to learn paragraph structuring this would have been picked up in the old school and even in this school in English. I’m concerned at rudeness/sarcasm being used as an educating tool. Think any issues we need to work together to sort them out, but it would be helpful to identify what they are first?

My DD was bullied in previous school so it’s impacting how I view things in this one.

But when you are a child on the receiving end of adult snark it’s hard to move in.
I would have reacted badly to feedback like that, and it is so surprising that to me that so many teachers aren’t aware of the crushing impact of badly handled feedback.

Yes, how dare a teacher point out to a child where they need to improve in their writing, and then set a task that encourages the child to consider how they could improve.

When I was in secondary, I happened to have the same prescribed course as my older brother had sat a couple of years earlier, and I had all his essays and feedback notes. Even at my young age then, I could see the teacher feedback on his essays were dripping with hostility and sarcasm, when his responses were actually pretty well thought out, and aligned with ‘Cole’s Notes’ style answers. I mention this because I could empathise then and now with how I constructive feedback is really unhelpful and damaging. (When he got his final results and secured a coveted place in veterinary, said teacher contacted my mother to express disbelief and the view that he was very lucky )

I agree OP. I'm a secondary school teacher and this is crap feedback. How can she just learn how to start a paragraph? She's needs more concrete advice than that. I also had no idea that there is a specific way to start a paragraph - and I have an English degree ( although that's not what I teach).

I’m a former English teacher. Based on what your DD has said about the teacher, I wouldn’t be happy with that feedback. What I mean is that for some teachers that would be a jumping off point for something to be addressed in the lesson because paragraphing was an issue for a number of students. Not much point in writing lengthy feedback if you’re just going to cover it all in the lesson. It doesn’t sound like that is what’s happening in your DD’s class, though.

What I will say is this: I spent endless hours trying to write meaningful targets in a way that was accessible to my students. For the vast majority of them, I don’t think it made even a bit of difference. They read the feedback and completed the response task that I set, but were unlikely to ever think of my comments again, let alone apply them to their future work. Marking was the most thankless task I have ever undertaken. That’s not to say they didn’t learn and improve. There were other things we did in lessons that made a far more significant impact on their progress. So, if the teacher was otherwise very good and your DD was learning in her lessons, I would let this go. If not, then there are bigger concerns.

FWIW, I left teaching because we moved to a different country, but it is the burden of marking that would stop me going back, regardless of my location.

@MultiStorey

You have interpreted the statement as being delivered with ‘snark’, but that’s not how I would have received it.

When I was a child, a primary teacher once said to me and my mother that I must learn times tables. She was right, I needed to spend more time memorising them.

If you were to Google paragraph cohesion conjunctions, you would bring up various word mats etc which can be used for ideas for ways to start paragraphs. And yes, PEEL or PEE or IPEELL grids will all help with organisation.
DS has APD/VPD and is currently studying a level history.

As opposed to a fiction that did happen?

The vast majority of comments say that you’ve misread the situation, and that’s ok! Whenever we criticise things we're not used to, it doesn't make us sound nice.

[quote RosesAndHellebores]@Michellexxx I'm a Director of HR and I'm sick to the back teeth of reviewing applications from graduates from all disciplines, including history, and coming across far too many young people with distinctions at Masters level who cannot use paragraps, punctuate, spell or construct grammatically correct sentences.

I suspect the rot sets in from primary onwards where we noticed so many qualified teachers not having a grasp of the basics. It's why our dc were transferred to the independent sector.

It's shocking feedback. I gave up English after GCSE in 1976 because my English teacher responded to my question "If Jane Austin can start a sentence with And, why can't we?" with "because you girl, are not Jane Austin".

Someone on MN once explained a sentence can be started with And. I start one regularly and it gives me a frisson of excitement.[/quote]
The irony of this post! Paragraphs, Austen, GCSE in 1976 when they didn’t start until 1988.

It's quite blunt and unnecessary, symbolic of a teacher who is incompetent to deal with various needs, if anything it should state 'please come to see me so we can go over paragraph structure'

As a teacher...albeit primary, so maybe we do things differently, I don't know...I would NEVER be so blunt in my feedback/marking! And if I was, my SLT would pull me up on it after a book scrutiny!! We should be encouraging children, not putting them off.

We usually form our feedback in terms of a question...so it's a personal dialogue between the teacher and child, eg Can you spot where you might need to add capital letters James?

The children respond to that feedback (in my school using a red pencil, but schools have their own editing/proofreading methods). If they can't 'spot' their mistake they know to come and ask for help...it's a supportive dialogue, like I said!

In the OPs DDs work I might have written: 'Where might the best place be in your narrative to end one paragraph and start a new one be Jessie?'

Sometimes they know, and have just got so carried away writing that they've not done it, so will add in two diagonal slashes to show, sometimes they genuinely don't, so will come and ask. It's all part of the learning process.

I'm quite saddened to read that some people think that this blunt approach is an acceptable way to encourage children to learn. It isn't.

@CarrieBlue thanks for that. A quickly written post rather than a piece of written work to be handed in. I take your point about GCSEs - yes of course I took O'Levels.

In the OPs DDs work I might have written: 'Where might the best place be in your narrative to end one paragraph and start a new one be Jessie?'

She has APD/dyslexia that would be way too much unnecessary writing.

There will often be other comments too so you can’t write that amount for every single part because either there is too little space, you don’t have the time or the child will struggle to read it all.

I would have written something a lot shorter like ‘paragraphs’ and then at the end written a longer comment and/or spoke to her in person to explain what I meant.

In my school they used to just write // which symbolised needing to start a new paragraph.

I was a teacher for 25 years. Teaching about 120 kids a day. That’s nearly 600 kids a week. You know , sometimes we get
tired or made mistakes.

But in Year 9 she should be able to write in paragraphs. All he means is that. Write in paragraphs. It’s no big deal. And if she is repeatedly not doing it, then she needs to LEARN how to do it, and to LEARN that it’s important. It’s called meta cognition. Learning about learning.

Now back off and leave the poor harassed overworked teacher alone who’s trying to do his best.

It's quite blunt and unnecessary, symbolic of a teacher who is incompetent to deal with various needs, if anything it should state 'please come to see me so we can go over paragraph structure'

No, it’s symbolic of a teacher with not enough time to do anything properly.

Cripes honestly, it sounds like she needs some refreshing on writing in paragraphs. Has she or you been proactive and spoken to her English teacher and said recieved x feedback is this something we will continue working on in English?

Sorry I haven’t been offered helpful feedback that read like that which is why I thought I’d ask teachers. As I could be missing context. .

You wouldn't get the feedback yourself, only Dd. The feedback is likely to be verbal, done in class. Do you know if Dd has been spoken to regarding the use of paragraphs in school, following this test? Or perhaps it will be covered in lesson time next week?

If she is still unsure it would be fine for Dd to request for further help on how to start a paragraph. But the request really should come from Dd, rather than mum.

Those people suggesting alternative detailed explanations on how to write in paragraphs have clearly never had the joy of teaching 400 plus students per week. If you teach a subject which is only allocated one hour per week then you teach a lot of different groups.

Many schools have introduced very complicated marking policies - usually demanding two positive comments and one target for improvement. My school also expected books to be marked at least once every three weeks, and a totally unnecessary system of different coloured sheets for different types of work and assessment which all had to be glued into the books by the teachers. In addition to marking for content we had to given feedback on literacy, and we were expected to comment on books where the child had not adhered the the prescribed way of setting out the title and date (I kid you not - it was an obsession of the HT).

Whilst it would have been great to have given very detailed feedback on how to set out a paragraph correctly there just is not the time when you have so much marking to do. The vast majority of students don't even bother to read, reflect and act on the feedback anyway. We we also pulled up for this - we had to be able to show in the books where students had done this. It took up huge amounts of class time.

I don't think the teacher's comment is at all brusque or nasty. It is a basic target - write in paragraphs. I am sure that the class will have had lessons on how to correctly present work in paragraphs so it is not as if the student is being asked to do something with no support at all.

I am afraid that some parents will look for, and find, something to complain about with teachers if they try hard enough.

@halloweenie13

It's quite blunt and unnecessary, symbolic of a teacher who is incompetent to deal with various needs, if anything it should state 'please come to see me so we can go over paragraph structure'

Utter bollocks.

Come on OP. You wanted to ask teachers about a written comment. Lots of teachers are saying this is not necessarily sarcasm, without evidence to back it up. You've said that your daughter thinks the teacher is being sarky to her in class, but given no examples. The written comment, on its own, means nothing. The way the teacher is making your daughter feel in class is much more relevant. Use the feedback form as an opportunity to remind the teacher that your daughter has apd. You are not happy with the school and you may have very good reason for that. Focusing on one written comment that is open to interpretation is going about it from the wrong angle, so there's no point getting frustrated at pp's who are following your lead. We can't tell, we weren't in the classroom, we don't know why your daughter feels as she does about that comment. That's what you need to get to the bottom of.

If a y9 child is crushed by the phrase ‘learn paragraphs’ I would suggest that the problem is with the child not with the phrase. I really don’t mean to be unkind but it’s just telling her what she needs to know. She will have been taught many, many times about paragraphs, as others have said don’t know the context - what verbal feedback was given. Was it the only comment? Was it a ‘what went well’ (www) and an ‘even better if’ (ebi)? I hope you haven’t encouraged your child to dwell on this by making a big deal of it.

Does your daughter have a formal diagnosis of her problems? At the start of the thread you say that you ‘suspect’ she has apd, but unfortunately the school won’t be able to do much without an actual diagnosis.

You could just remind her to write in paragraphs. Please bear in mind that the teacher is giving feedback on maybe twenty five lots of work. It's unreasonable to expect him/her to write a detailed assessment for each tiny point of a child's work.
By year 9, your daughter must have been taught about paragraphs. If you think she hasn't, it would be ten minutes of your time to teach her.