Calling teachers - what could this comment mean?

[Faultymain5]

My daughter came home from school and I had to sign a sheet in her exercise book.

Firstly I suspect my daughter has APD (since primary school) and have been going backwards and forwards with the various schools/GPS all telling us they can’t do anything unless the other does something. We’ve given her tutors for her problem areas so she can at least keep up. But can’t do it for all.

Anyway she took a history test which she has been “revising” for for a couple weeks.

On the form she brought home today she has to write an explanation of what she did and what went wrong. it shows where she has put in the box that she used the revision sheet provided, understood some of what was on the sheet and memorised some of her notes. She also says she thought she could have focused more to have done better.

All this seems fine. The result was on her, but I’m aware of the time she took out to “revise” and leaving early for homework club in the mornings. I’m also aware she is a bit of a people pleaser.

I started looking through the work that was marked. The comments seemed fair up until the point where the teacher says “Learn how to start a paragraph”. Is this how some teachers deal with children? (nothing changed since my day) or is that comment helpful to a person if they don’t know how to write a paragraph?

Obviously I have to write that I’ve seen the test and the comments and all I can think is if the teacher talks to the kids this way regularly (my daughter has been complaining for a while, which I haven’t paid much attention to admittedly - new school, bedding in period), then no wonder she wants to drop history (used to be her favourite subject in the old school).

Surely if she needs to learn paragraph structuring this would have been picked up in the old school and even in this school in English. I’m concerned at rudeness/sarcasm being used as an educating tool. Think any issues we need to work together to sort them out, but it would be helpful to identify what they are first?

My DD was bullied in previous school so it’s impacting how I view things in this one.

@iwishiwasafish

I’m going to go against the flow. DS had similar with a teacher in a subject he previously loved and did well in. I suggest you speak to the pastoral teacher. I did and it was very insightful (basically the teacher was a bully). DS dropped the class and has been much happier and less stressed.

Thanks I could still be imagining it but with every other thing my DD has said (that I shamefully ignored), I’m a little concerned with the tone. On the other hand as an unhelpful PP said I could just be being ridiculous worrying about my child in a new environment trying to work out teachers’ ‘quirks’

I wonder if it's something to do with the very specific way they're meant to structure their essays for GCSE history? It bewildered dd for a while until she learned how to do it. It involves a set order of paragraphs.

In the nicest possible way, I imagine when you speak to the teacher, you'll be told that she has taught the class how to correctly paragraph and that your daughter isn't doing it. Hence, it becomes one of her ongoing targets for the teacher's evaluation

@Maflingo

Well it is feedback, but quite blunt I think. How old is your DD? Have they covered essay writing/paragraph structuring etc in class, and the teacher feels she should know this skill already? I moved schools after year 7 and the new school had already covered this in year 7 and my old school hadn’t so I spent quite a long time with similar feedback! Perhaps ask her English teacher for any guidance on what she should be able to do before judging whether the history teacher was rude or not.

This is what I have suggested, that if she needs extra help we’re happy to help, but both she and we need to know what help she needs, we need to know what she doesn’t know.

PAFMO can I ask what support is given to help achieve the learning aim? If the OP's DD doesn't already have this skill how is she meant to learn it without it being taught? Just writing learn how to start a paragraph is not helpful for anyone.

I’m a teacher and I often say that to pupils..if she’s 13/14 then I’d expect her to know how to write in paragraphs by now..
Perhaps you could discuss writing in paragraphs with her and see if she does know how to. If not, she could ask her English teacher or history teacher for tips and you could go over it at home.
It is a relatively simple expectation if you’re coming up to exam years.. teachers are not being passive aggressive in written feedback, we’re just providing direction for the future. So on the future, your daughter should, hopefully write in paragraphs.

@Bellyups

I think the teacher was pointing it out in a blunt way, that she should, in year 9, be using paragraphs.

So blunt but not rude.

I think English essay structure is different. It's called PEEL, the structure they ask for in history.

www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/zcds9qt/revision/6

I'd quite often stuck a comment down along these lines but when I give the tests back would say to the class to let me know, verbally or via email, if they're unsure of how to improve or what my comments mean.

OP, as a secondary teacher of 18 years, I bloody agree with you! I can understand those sticking up for the teacher and I'm sure they are correct and that it is a target and meant to be supportive. But what a crap target! The wording of it is so unhelpful.

'child doesn't know how to do X' 'target is to learn how to do X'. Errrr, how about showing them how to do that? OP, are you sure your DD hasn't missed something? Another piece of paper or a verbal comment from teacher to support her in this?

@Mum6776

I wonder if it's something to do with the very specific way they're meant to structure their essays for GCSE history? It bewildered dd for a while until she learned how to do it. It involves a set order of paragraphs.

I’ll try and find out. But it’s put her off which is not good as she previously enjoyed the subject even when she didn’t understand it all.

@NursieBernard

PAFMO can I ask what support is given to help achieve the learning aim? If the OP's DD doesn't already have this skill how is she meant to learn it without it being taught? Just writing learn how to start a paragraph is not helpful for anyone.

It's not an order to learn something she doesn't know I imagine. It's a reminder of a learning target. At least that's how it reads to me (27 years a teacher and all these targets and aims and box ticking increase exponentially with each one!) Obviously, if it is a reprimand, then again, it can be seen two ways: teacher has had it to the back teeth of students not writing the way they've been taught to or, she hasn't taught it to them.

@OnceuponaRainbow18

I usually write: please write in paragraphs

Which is what I’d expect.

Have you asked your daughter if she knows what she's being asked to do? And if she knows what it's about? If it's a reminder, or something they are doing/ have covered in class, she can tell you. Or if she thinks the teacher is having a dig, she can tell you that too.

You need to be direct/blunt when you're marking 30, 60 or maybe 90 essay-based exams.

"Please" or "Think about.." wouldn't have made the feedback any more useful.

Teacher's comment is unhelpful and rude. I would always write something like "remember not to start a paragraph with xyz" or "have a look in your notes for pointers on how to start a good paragraph" etc. We don't get any time for anything though, and just a few extra words per book can be impossible at times.

(Fwiw I do sometimes write an exasperated "read the question!" type comment, which would possibly look aggressive on paper, but no kid I actually teach would ever think I meant it aggressively- I'm a total pushover!)

Starting a paragraph correctly is very different to writing in paragraphs. I think it's a perfectly fine target to have AS LONG AS she is offered to means to learn that - ie if it has been discussed in class, or if she has been given examples on this. I might have phrased it something like 'remember to use a topic sentence'. However, I do think that people's obsession with marking (teachers', pupils' and parents') is damaging. There is typically, in good teaching, SO much more feedback going on that is not visible to a parent. Simply looking at the feedback in a book does not tell you the full story.

@PAFMO

In the nicest possible way, I imagine when you speak to the teacher, you'll be told that she has taught the class how to correctly paragraph and that your daughter isn't doing it. Hence, it becomes one of her ongoing targets for the teacher's evaluation

Thank you for being nice. But I’d just say that that sounds like it’s a note to remind the teacher, not the student. DD started in September. As the teacher is the head of year she knows this, so DD may very well not what she’s talking about.

@Michellexxx I'm a Director of HR and I'm sick to the back teeth of reviewing applications from graduates from all disciplines, including history, and coming across far too many young people with distinctions at Masters level who cannot use paragraps, punctuate, spell or construct grammatically correct sentences.

I suspect the rot sets in from primary onwards where we noticed so many qualified teachers not having a grasp of the basics. It's why our dc were transferred to the independent sector.

It's shocking feedback. I gave up English after GCSE in 1976 because my English teacher responded to my question "If Jane Austin can start a sentence with And, why can't we?" with "because you girl, are not Jane Austin".

Someone on MN once explained a sentence can be started with And. I start one regularly and it gives me a frisson of excitement.

@user1471530109

OP, as a secondary teacher of 18 years, I bloody agree with you! I can understand those sticking up for the teacher and I'm sure they are correct and that it is a target and meant to be supportive. But what a crap target! The wording of it is so unhelpful. 'child doesn't know how to do X' 'target is to learn how to do X'. Errrr, how about showing them how to do that? OP, are you sure your DD hasn't missed something? Another piece of paper or a verbal comment from teacher to support her in this?

Not today, time was short maybe the teacher plans on discussing at a later date which is why the form was sent home for me to sign. New school, new methods a lot for us all to learn.

You know what you want the replies to say OP, you are shooting down anyone who is not giving you what you want.
Comments are blunt because of time, honestly. I am a teacher and know LOADS of teachers and I don’t know one who is hateful or sarcastic towards pupils. Never heard of one. Those days are gone. Have heard of many strange stories but truly always fond of the kids. So very unlikely that the tone is “sarcastic”. Jeez.

@Nellle so teachers as members of society shouldn't set good examples in relation to courtesy and good manners?

Hmm, I'm a Head of History and would pick this up if seen in quality assurance of marking.
I don't think it is meant sarcastically, but I don't think it is very constructive. Writing something like "try to use the wording of the question to start your paragraph. For example One of the causes of WWI was..." Just telling a student to learn to do something isn't going to help them learn how to do it. Students need guidance and modelling.

We were always told to PEE

P - point
E - evidence
E - explanation

Might be helpful for your DD

@Nellle

You need to be direct/blunt when you're marking 30, 60 or maybe 90 essay-based exams.

"Please" or "Think about.." wouldn't have made the feedback any more useful.

On that basis the teacher shouldn’t have written anything because DD has not a clue wtf she’s speaking about and was more worried about not understanding anything. Maybe a “please” now and again would reduce anxiety, some kids try but aren’t able to reach lofty heights of others. DD was fine with some of her limitations until very recently.