Secondary choices - middle class angst

[Wincher]

Name changer here, been on MN donkey’s years...

We’ve just done my eldest’s secondary application. We’ve gone for the local company - it’s 5 mins walk away, has rave reviews from parents I know with kids there, seems really welcoming and inclusive. Ofsted Good. Not great results, about 43% 5 good grades, basically in line with national average.

I just keep worrying that we’re not doing the best for my child and I need some sense knocked into me by MN. Both DH and I were privately educated. We are now very comfortably off. We were lucky enough to buy in London zone 3 before prices went crazy and we have a small but comfortable terraced house in a slightly grotty area a mile from the tube. We could afford something bigger in a better area but we have a brilliant group of friends here and our whole life is here. We could also - probably not as well as moving - afford private school for both our kids. But DH is against it in principle and it does seem like a crazy amount of money to spend - at £18k per year or so that’s the best part of £100k for each child just to get to GCSEs. Plus there’s the not minor point that my eldest is bright but not outstanding and really we should have been tutoring him for the last two years if he was going to stand a chance of passing entrance exams.

But I do really think private would suit him - he’s not bothered about being with his friends, he’d love to learn Latin, he’s little and got a posh accent and I worry he’ll be ripped to shreds in a big London state comp.

I think as the deadline for applying to private schools approaches (1 dec I think) I’m just worrying whether Sending him to the local school is really us doing our best by him. People say bright kids will do well wherever they go but is that really true? We still have a couple of months before the exams would be, we could intensively tutor him until then?!

Please tell me I’m being ridiculous and he will do well at the local school! I need to stop the yearning for rugby fields and wood-panelled halls.

Loads of posts! I actually came on to answer the reply about safety nets and MC families always having the option of switching to private. Yes, it's true that some would never opt for private in any circumstances due to personal conviction. But that safety net works in many ways. Of those who wouldn't consider private, I suspect that many or most also wouldn't have got themselves in a situation of only living within the catchment of atrocious schools. For those less well off, that's not a choice.

@PresentingPercy its not social one-up-manship, it is basic humanity - their friends tell them they are on FSM, my kids don't judge them even though they aren't on FSM themselves. Simples. I didn't say it was great that they know children who are on FSM, I said that they don't judge their friends who are on FSM. It helps when we talk about eg Marcus Rashford's campaign around the meal table eating our organic home cooked food that they are friends with people affected by it. Let us pretend for a moment that both of our children got the same degree, say economics, and went on to become politicians. Who do you think could help legislate more effectively to help those who struggle with paying for the basics of life - the adult who has very little experience of the real lives of those affected, or the one who despite having a different family background themselves has spent time in the homes of those kids who do have FSM and experienced what a home meal is for them, have stood behind them in the lunch queue, and who have talked to them about how it feels in a non judgemental way? FSM isn't a label it is a fact and one that we should feel deeply ashamed of in our wealthy nation.

@coolingbreezes

Loads of posts! I actually came on to answer the reply about safety nets and MC families always having the option of switching to private. Yes, it's true that some would never opt for private in any circumstances due to personal conviction. But that safety net works in many ways. Of those who wouldn't consider private, I suspect that many or most also wouldn't have got themselves in a situation of only living within the catchment of atrocious schools. For those less well off, that's not a choice.

Yes, I agree with this and, referring back to my earlier post about how we are all on a spectrum. If I'd lived in an area where the only option was an under-performing school where behavioural issues were rife (as is the case with one local school near us) I'd have done anything in my power to avoid sending DC there.

Quite honestly @flourandeggs I think that the answer could realistically be either! Tony Benn didn’t exactly have a poor start in life along with numerous politicians we could name!

And as for
Louiselhrau
Go private. You'll be horrified by what goes on in normal schools and what they get away with. At least you won't have them indoctrinated with the latest buzzwords of the masses.

If you can afford it. Private private private all the way, I can't bare the whole liberal left education system
"You'll be horrified by what goes in on normal schools.... the masses'

Eh, not sure where to start with this! You sound absolutely delightful, let’s hope your DC learn a little more tolerance!

It's also a personal choice about what you aspire to for your children.
I work in a university and most of our students come from private schools. On the whole, they are no smarter than kids from state schools but they definitely come across as a lot more entitled. Now whilst that sense of entitlement annoys me as their teacher, it will also take them far career wise. If that's what you want for your kids then going private makes sense.

@coolingbreezes, “ Of those who wouldn't consider private, I suspect that many or most also wouldn't have got themselves in a situation of only living within the catchment of atrocious schools. For those less well off, that's not a choice.”

Agreed. And I’d agree with the PP that a lot of are guilty of some form of hypocrisy and personally as it involves our DC then I know that I would make the same choices again. We all want the best for our children & the the hell are we to criticise anyone else for theirs? We were always going to go State (and DH ruled out grammar due to the preponderance of coaching giving MC an advantage). DD isn’t at the local State though, she has a music place at a better performing out of area. She has had private music and singing lessons since about the age of 4. While DH might not see the hypocrisy in our choice (or letting DD do a music audition and testing when he’d rejected the grammar tests!), I know I do!

@SJaneS48 true - but I think they might have been in a smallish minority from their peer groups, many of whom probably could not have become thoughtful and effective legislators. I think my point still stands that to some extent early exposure to something does help you become educated about it. And I am certainly not celebrating the fact my children have friends who have FSM as a social tick box exercise for my liberalness, I am just glad really that my kids are having fun with friends and not judging them whatever their financial situation might be and if that helps them go on and become thoughtful adults, great.

Yes @leavingvegas that definitely a consideration for me - whether you see it as beneficial confidence or entitlement is a matter of perspective.

In my day job I run courses for secondary school age children and I've been quite blown away by the difference in attitude. White middle class boys at private schools (and I'm afraid it is that demographic in my experience) will literally walk into the room, sit down and put their feet up on the seats while the boys and girls from state schools stand awkwardly at the side lines. I'm sure that sort of confidence does work well in a job interview but a bit of sensitivity and self-awareness would go a long way as far as I'm concerned.

@Louiselhrau

Go private. You'll be horrified by what goes on in normal schools and what they get away with. At least you won't have them indoctrinated with the latest buzzwords of the masses.

If you can afford it. Private private private all the way, I can't bare the whole liberal left education system

I went to private school myself and the prevalent view amongst many of the students that they were better than everyone else is one reason that I wouldn't send my own DC to one.

Seems that attitudes have not changed much.

(Yes, I'm sure this is not representative of all parents and students, but it's clearly representative of some).

Louiselhrau my son (in Year 12) has made a new friend this year who previously attended a private school (and a private boarding school at that). DS has learnt an awful lot of new swear words (including some in several languages, does this make it educational?) from him.

@deathbyprocrastination - absolutely. On the one hand - it really winds me up because they feel entitled to a 1st (but are just not bright enough). But I also realized that no amount of ski holidays etc will create that sense of entitlement in my own DC. And it works - those boys will go far just because of how they come across. And the other kids just won't in some ways precisely because they realize that the world is a complex place (having come from a state school) but also because they dont have this blind self-belief installed in them from a young age which wont be dented whether they get a 2.2 or a 1st

@leavingvegas agreed. Happily though, I really do think the world is changing (albeit at a slower rate than one might hope for) - universities and employers are increasingly wise to that kind of oblivious entitlement and inability to see the advantages one has benefitted from. It does depend a lot of the industry/university etc though!

@leavingvegas but will they go so far beyond what their talents actually merit and then make a complete shit show of their jobs like some people I could mention who are in power right now?!!!

@flourandeggs well I assume that as has been demonstrated in the news today that even if they do it wont make much of a difference when it comes to their career prospects.

@deathbyprocrastination - unfortunately, my impression is the opposite. Since I first joined my uni (its one of the top one in the UK) there are fewer and fewer students from state schools. British students are almost exclusively all from private schools which is a bit sad.

It would be interesting to see the 43% 5 good grades results of the state school split out into socio economic sub categories.
This figure is the whole school year.... if the school year cohort was split out into different backgrounds of the children (whichever meaningful demographic would apply, but lets say average household income) I bet the figure would be a lot different for the children whose profile is similar to the OP and this would likely be pretty reassuring to OP.

@leavingvegas that's really depressing :(

@ChickensMightFly Yes, I'm sure you're right about that.

@deathbyprocrastination - it is. not sure why that is, except perhaps that competition has become a lot more fierce due to the greater number of international students. no idea. but I never thought that getting into London unis from a state school was ever all that difficult but it seems to be.

the downside - and that is something to consider is that kids from private schools or those who've been heavily tutored for A'level really struggle with independent study (in my experience) and dont always do all that well. Now this doesnt really matter because they will all do the right internship etc and land the right jobs but still it might be something to consider

Isn't it too late for Private? Both sitting the exam and the years of studying required?
I'm always staggered by how late people leave things. I considered primary and secondary as soon as I fell pregnant. Because if you did need to move, once possibly twice, moving is actually a very slow process.

The local schools are all excellent. Why would you live anywhere that wasn't? You've had 11+ years to consider all this. If you planned to move to get into a good school, you need to be planning it years before.

Surely the only option left open to you is the local school?

@Wincher there's only one-ish test this year for private schools at 11+ the IESB so why not try it?

He's got nothing to lose. You'd need to mug up on verbal reasoning etc but if he's bright he'll have no problem. You might get an offer from somewhere...

Or otherwise if there are top sets that are well taught at your local state school, then why not? What I notice is that a lot of people who go to a state school tend to talk it up, even when it's a bit rubbish, from what I can tell, having had experience of both state and private now. They'd love to be able to go privately (vast majority) but don't have the money so there's a lot of tub thumping about how fantastic this or that school is. Whenever I talk about state schools to my friends who have kids there I'm always complimentary about the state schools but I know what really goes on, having been party to the whole thing for many years now.

Personally I'd go private. It's a 100% educational guarantee. Your child gets a completely different sort of education too. There's no other way to describe it. It's just much more rounded as you would well know, having been educated privately yourself.

@TagMeQuick " It's a 100% educational guarantee"
That is so far from the truth it is laughable.

Actually you're right. It's not. Happy to give on that one. Only with the right ingredients.

No university has nearly all DC from private schools. There’s some real rubbish on this thread with stereotypes being used to defend the indefensible. State school kids all stand to the side?! What total tosh. Dominic Raab was state educated. He’s a real wallflower isn’t he? Of course state pupils have personality and ambition. They have presence and personality. Do not ever think these young people are back numbers because it suits you to portray them as such. And the idea that no quiet or shy DC ever went to a private school - words fail me!

pupils there called the local school pupils chavs

No different to writing off a section of society as ‘gammons’.

“ They'd love to be able to go privately (vast majority) but don't have the money“

Really? You sure about that?

“It's a 100% educational guarantee”.

No, it depends entirely on what school we are talking about and even then, no such thing as a 100% guarantee. Plenty of State Schools outperform Private’s.

“ Your child gets a completely different sort of education too. There's no other way to describe it. It's just much more rounded as you would well know, having been educated privately yourself.”

Having been privately educated (very expensively, not the local Private)I always think this ‘much more rounded’ line which is frequently trotted out as if it’s some absolute truth for all Private’s is pretty much the epitome of talking things up

What I notice is that a lot of people who go to a state school tend to talk it up, even when it's a bit rubbish, from what I can tell, having had experience of both state and private now.

Most people with children at my DC's state school are quite honest about it. There are good points and bad points about the school, as there is about anything. I don't think their school is the most amazing school ever and I'm happy to say what I think could be improved (if anyone asks, and to the school when I think it's relevant). I do think, by and large, it does a good job and we can therefore ignore the niggly things. In my position (as someone who could afford private but it would mean cutting down on other things that we value as a family) the money spend on private education is better spent elsewhere.

I actually think your statement is backwards. IME people whose DC go to private school talk them up a lot - as if to justify the fees they pay. I remember my SIL telling me how her DC (private school) had been pushed ahead a year in maths as he was so able, only to have to repeat the same maths the following year. Her view was that it wasn't worth complaining about as lots of other things about the school were so good. There's a current thread about a private school that doesn't offer GCSE or A Level physics, but the poster is still saying how great the school is otherwise. Private schools have good and bad points, just like any other.

@Andante57 You are right of course, and I know that I shouldn't make a joke out of it, hopefully once Brexit is done and dusted I can get over my anger and move on.
However husband was reading Private Eye last night and came across the fact that Gammon is now in the urban dictionary, and the definition did make me giggle.
I can see that I must be careful not to pass on my anger to my kiddo's but it will be hard to give up playing gammon bingo when we are driving through the local town, it is one of the better car games. 10 points red trousers, 10 points Labrador, 20 points gillet, oh look its Grandpa!!

URBAN DICTIONARY: Gammon
Collective noun for white, middle-aged, furious-faced men who are heavily concentrated in the vast reaches of England's Brexit heartlands.

Spitting out talking points found in fascist organs like the Daily Mail (or, for those preferring something less intellectual, the Daily Express), gammon exist in a state of perpetual outrage and exasperated "I'm just an ordinary bloke, me" confusion.

Core traits:

• They favour Brexit. After all, it means Brexit.
• Because the Conservative Party and the right-wing media ecosystem have told them to, they reject those things that underpin their jobs, living standards and opportunities: environmental protections, workers' rights, regulations favouring consumers, the European Union, the single market and the customs union. These things also benefit people they don't like (including foreigners and Guardian readers), of course, so they have to go.
• On the off-chance that they're aware of a border in Ireland, they don't know anything about it.
• They dislike multiculturalism and the 'equality agenda', and obsess about 'lefties', immigrants, Jeremy Corbyn ("Would 'e launch a nuke?! WELL, WOULD 'E?!") and the fabled liberal metropolitan elite.
• They hate Muslims, so they voted for the UK to withdraw from a free trade bloc comprising countries made up of white Christians.
• Having spent 40 years bellyaching about the UK's democratic decision to enter the EEC, they are now unbending guardians of its democratic decision to leave.

"There was so much gammon on Question Time last night that I went straight on Amazon and bought a panini machine. I'll get killed with the tariffs, but it'll be worth it."

"Fresh fruit looks likely to become a luxury after Brexit, but at least we'll have a surfeit of gammon."