A-level choices: engineering-----architecture

[istherelifeafter40]

DS has to choose 4 A-levels in November. He is not decided on what he wants to do as a career, but is leaning towards engineering - or architecture (quite a spread!) There seem to be myriads of different kinds of engineering - from mechanical, aerospace, electronic, civil, to biochemical. I don't know much about any of them. (Humanities person here).
I think he might also change his mind and decide to do natural sciences, for instance... I love the idea of natsoc at Cambridge - start wide and narrow down. I am generally against early specialisation...

Currently, he has 8 in maths and all sciences, but also in eng and photography that he loves. He also likes chemistry very much and says that physics is very easy. BUT he dislikes maths, although he does well in it and is in set 2 our of 6 in a selective school.

Our current choice is Maths, Chemistry, Physics and Photography (which would open architecture if he goes this way, but is a course-based work-intensive subject). He accepts that he "has to do maths" (not my doing)

or Maths, Chemistry, Physics and Biology (he dislikes biology, but I think it might be quite a different subject at A-level?).

The school also insists on EPQ, and he will be able to drop 1 A level but can continue with 4.

He is set very much against further maths, which as I understand rules out some of the best mechanical engineering courses or general engineering at cambridge, but can still be ok for the other unis. Imperial has dozens of kinds of engineering and they all require different A levels (and different grades, from A, A, A to AAA). How do you decide at 15?

Any advice? I am worried that doing 3 sciences and an artistic course-based work will be too heavy (+epq)! I wonder if it is too much science work and pressure in case he decides to do architecture (many courses don't specify A levels whatsoever).
He doesn't want to do any humanities' subjects though, or something like economics or politics...

Any advice or just a chat would be great

(DD does Maths, Physics, a language and Art. Her EPQ, her main Art project and her individual research topic for her language A-level are all architecture-based, just to ensure that all the work she does is useful in as wide a range a contexts as possible)

@istherelifeafter40 To answer your question regarding structural versus civil engineering, yes ime most people do a civil engineering degree (all of which have a lot of emphasis on structural engineering anyway) and then specialise afterwards. You can become a chartered civil or structural engineer or both, depending on how your career pans out. I think there are a few unis offering Structural Engineering degrees but I’m not convinced there is a benefit to specialising from the start.

I think you also asked earlier about degrees with a common first year or general engineering degrees. I think these are useful options if the student is not certain which branch of engineering to go for or if they don’t plan to work as an engineer afterwards. You would need to check the course specification to see how flexible they are & what the different paths are.

Thank you everyone for your answers and opinions.

I myself would love to study at Bartlett - I think it would be so much fun. And of course, being in a big city is great. It was an interesting opinion about Imperial. They are trying to do something with the RCA, but it seems very superficial, apart from the obnoxious name (!).

I don't know if he'd go for architecture or it's more of an inspiration of the moment. There is no way he is doing art; and so if he decides to apply for architecture, photography will have to do. With all respect, I cannot believe that architecture courses will be preferring people who can draw realistic pictures of still life over people who can do 3D modelling, technical drawing and have some great ideas. The problem with Art A level is that it is very traditional. I think if an architecture course prefers a traditional artist, it's not worth going there.

He is doing D&T, but the way it runs took all life and interest out of the course; it's just about going through the motions, where the time for actually exploring is so short, and the majority of time is spent of faking content according to what needs to be in the portfolio slides. Such a pity.

I guess it will be engineering of some sort, unless he becomes interested in doing a science, like chemistry. TBH he is engineer-y in my opinion, the question is what kind of person he shapes out to be, how much work he is prepared to put in things. I think at the moment he just doesn't want to grow up :D

Few people these days are chartered at both Civil and structural engineering. Most grads end up specialising and it now takes years to get chartered. DH is a Fellow in both but that’s pretty difficult now. You do study both in a Civil Engineering degree as well as environmental engineering which is now very important.

Architects don’t lead big infrastructure projects. So flood alleviation, drainage, roads, bridges, major structural design of buildings, railways, docks, tunnels, sewerage schemes is civil and structural engineering. In fact everything you take for granted in every day life! Architects make it look nice.

No Civils are not the bottom rung. That’s laughable. It also shows a degree of ignorance about the fact that no large building can be designed by an architect alone. Engineers must be involved to ensure safety of the design. If they are not it can be catastrophic - see the house in Chelsea that collapsed.

No Civils are not the bottom rung. That’s laughable.

I think that was very much a rather narrow architect's-eye-view hierarchy rather than indicative of any relative worth of types of engineer in a wider context. The fact is, the modern world needs all of them, and within each discipline there will be different levels of role.

“With all respect, I cannot believe that architecture courses will be preferring people who can draw realistic pictures of still life over people who can do 3D modelling, technical drawing and have some great ideas. The problem with Art A level is that it is very traditional. I think if an architecture course prefers a traditional artist, it's not worth going there.”

Without getting into why you think Art A level is ‘traditional’ (because in my experience it doesn’t have to be at all, even years ago when I did it before studying architecture) I would perhaps discount an Architecture degree if your DC doesn’t like to express ideas through freehand sketching. Although CAD is the tool for detailed design, sketching is still the medium of trying out and presenting initial ideas as an architect. Most universities will need to see some evidence of those skills, and even looking beyond the course - if you want to actually be an architect, it’s really important. A student may be able to show a real passion for architecture and buildings through photography and video that may get them into a course, but they would still need to pick up a pencil at some point during the course I’m sure!

I would try and get your DC a few days work experience ASAP in an architects office to see if its really something they would want to do as it is a very difficult profession to understand. I had no idea what I was getting myself into at that age!

This thread is making me think of the Big Bang Theory & Sheldon looking down on Engineers (&Geologists).

Dd is pretty shit at drawing/sketching. Scraped a C in gcse art and didn’t do A-level. She did have a fairly varied portfolio but it was limited on sketches/painting.

One of her modules in Year One was a weekly sketching class and i think that helped improve her skills a lot.

Hi my son has just finished applied geology has gone straight into a job and has been offered the chance to go chartered engineer or geologist he did three sciences and Spanish at A-level at sixth form

Sketching buildings - yes, drawing human faces - no. Learning to use waterbed paints versus oil, etc - this is fun but it is rather traditional.
I do think art is fairly traditional at A level, becomes I am involved in art quite a bit, and artists as we know them now really very rarely draw - I mean there are many many interesting artists who do not draw, paint, or sculpt.

@TeenPlusTwenties its funny, - although it is a bit of a reverse. Engineers are Sheldon, and people who are in set 2 in maths whatever that means are never gonna become engineers :D
I do know some architects but they all academics :D I honestly doubt my DS architectural passion... But you never know

Applied geology, how interesting - would never had thought of that!

I think DS doesn't really care about human organs (that they currently learn in biology) or earth (geology), - it is only mechanisms that attract him - and then, chemical compounds too

Architecture is quite creative. I’d suggest design, photography or graphics courses if he’s planning on that route. But apparently architecture is also relatively low paid so you might want to research job opportunities before making a decision.

It’s like any other profession, it’s well paid when you work for a bigger well known practice, if you work for Joe Bloggs in the local town it won’t be great.

DH has worked with numerous mid range architects down the years. They are not “academic” in the traditional sense but they have vision and the necessary skills to work the vision up into plans and explain them to clients. You will notice from many tv programmes, that designing to a budget isn’t always a strength. DH sometimes thinks that running their practices on a budget isn’t a great strength either. Hence the profession can be precarious at times. A good architect is creative and finds solutions as well as fulfilling the brief of the client within a budget. Good Engineers do exactly the same.

There are lower routes for qualification as an Engjneer. Incorporated Engineers are valued but often they won’t make it to the top of a company as they don’t have Chartered status. However if DC isn’t so academic, they can access a BEng course and take the Incorporated Engineer route. There’s still work out there!

DH is an incorporated engineer (electonics) He left school at 15 (august baby) did an old fashioned apprenticeship, did a few diplomas as well.
They are crying out for people like DH as he and so many similar engineers are retiring in the next 10 years

@bruffin

DH is an incorporated engineer (electonics) He left school at 15 (august baby) did an old fashioned apprenticeship, did a few diplomas as well. They are crying out for people like DH as he and so many similar engineers are retiring in the next 10 years

When DD was making her uni choices, we heard a few times that they could see there would be a need for electrical (high voltage) because so many would inevitably be retiring in the next few years. I'd guess probably not particularly likely to be the OP's DS's thing but might be relevant to others reading the thread.

All DC now will train post A level (Apprenticeships) or post degree. There are loads of BEng sandwich courses at the old polys. These are truly excellent degrees and get students in the workplace which adds value. Often, when the students apply for jobs, they have a great cv and hit the ground running. It’s not just electronics where this work experience is useful. It’s something a lot of students should consider if they are BEng type students.

I tend to think the advice on MN can be very narrow because parents are not engineers working in the field. Academic engineers have their place, of course, but often engineers are running projects that are fairly minor but still important. Not everyone will work for Ove Arup or Rolls Royce or Mercedes F1. Engineers will work for a whole variety of employers and might even become employers one day, as DH did at 27.

One of the big problems we have with engineering is that some of the best grads don’t stay in engineering. They go into the finance sector or similar. Engineering is a vehicle to another career. As a result some engineering professions have continual shortages and are not attractive enough to some high flying individuals.

DD1 is a current 4th year Cambridge NatSci student. Your DS definitely does not need Biology. DD took Maths, FM, Physics & Chemistry A levels. In the first year, Maths is compulsory whereas I think you can choose any of the other modules. DD went in as a Chemist, but having done Chemistry & Materials Science in year 2, chose to specialise in Materials Science last year and this year and is loving it.

An older friend studied Architecture at a neighbouring college. Her A levels were in Maths, Physics and Art. There was a LOT a sketching needed for Architecture right through the course.

Most people here are correct about Engineering. If your DS is not sure what he wants to do, a general first year might be a good idea. The engineering institutions might be a good place to start as they do good things with outreach and schools liaison. Your DS could look up the main ones and contact them for information. My DH used to teach in an Engineering department at a Russell group university and has interviewed countless 6th formers. He was looking for someone passionate about the subject, someone who went beyond the classroom to find things out. He loved having youngsters in who could talk about a Lego model they had built or something they had constructed from Meccano or the like.

An older friend studied Architecture at a neighbouring college. Her A levels were in Maths, Physics and Art.

My understanding is that these 3 A-levels are the most common combination amongst architecture students at Cambridge.

My DH made models at home! Surgical in those days! Modified models too! Also the budding engineers at school built a mini rail with linear induction engine power! He went with the school to engineering lecturers by a star lecturer at a nearby university - with the school! He even was able to do an entry to architecture design course! Chose to be an engineer though. So make things. Think about how they work and what could be a better design. Experiment. Schools are poor with helping engineers these days. They could do so much more!

For budding engineers who are currently in Year 11 and going into 6th form next year
The Arkwright Scholarship is now open for application
Its basically £600 for student , money for school , a mentor from industry and invitation to various engineering events

And sadly known about by few people except those in the know. Schools need to do a lot more to help engineers. They willnot all get scholarshios but engineering clubs at school should be available to pupils who might want this career. At the very least to explore avenues of engineering and expand the knowledge of students.

Perhaps it's just me, but if your DS doesn't enjoy maths, why is he thinking about going into such maths heavy degrees?

Because he didn’t know what was involved? That’s why the op was asking I think.

But surely, it's fairly obvious that engineering is going to be very maths focussed?

@SabrinaThwaite

But surely, it's fairly obvious that engineering is going to be very maths focussed?

I don't think op knows how maths focused physics is . Many schools don't allow Physics A levels without maths A level