A-level choices: engineering-----architecture

[istherelifeafter40]

DS has to choose 4 A-levels in November. He is not decided on what he wants to do as a career, but is leaning towards engineering - or architecture (quite a spread!) There seem to be myriads of different kinds of engineering - from mechanical, aerospace, electronic, civil, to biochemical. I don't know much about any of them. (Humanities person here).
I think he might also change his mind and decide to do natural sciences, for instance... I love the idea of natsoc at Cambridge - start wide and narrow down. I am generally against early specialisation...

Currently, he has 8 in maths and all sciences, but also in eng and photography that he loves. He also likes chemistry very much and says that physics is very easy. BUT he dislikes maths, although he does well in it and is in set 2 our of 6 in a selective school.

Our current choice is Maths, Chemistry, Physics and Photography (which would open architecture if he goes this way, but is a course-based work-intensive subject). He accepts that he "has to do maths" (not my doing)

or Maths, Chemistry, Physics and Biology (he dislikes biology, but I think it might be quite a different subject at A-level?).

The school also insists on EPQ, and he will be able to drop 1 A level but can continue with 4.

He is set very much against further maths, which as I understand rules out some of the best mechanical engineering courses or general engineering at cambridge, but can still be ok for the other unis. Imperial has dozens of kinds of engineering and they all require different A levels (and different grades, from A, A, A to AAA). How do you decide at 15?

Any advice? I am worried that doing 3 sciences and an artistic course-based work will be too heavy (+epq)! I wonder if it is too much science work and pressure in case he decides to do architecture (many courses don't specify A levels whatsoever).
He doesn't want to do any humanities' subjects though, or something like economics or politics...

Any advice or just a chat would be great

@ShowingOut Don't worry about gentleness, you are absolutely right. I am not giving this information to DS, only maybe very little drip feed, that there is such a thing as chemical engineering, stuff like that.

I am researching this for my own understanding. I have a tendency to run before a train but I've learnt to hide it. He needs to choose A-levels and I am now content that the first option can open enough routes for him and not foreclose anything much. If I have a map of options in my head, it calms me down.

Ultimately I have no idea which grades he will achieve in GSCE, and to some extent what he is capable of. He is very bright, but not the kind of bright that is working from morning till night to get only the top grades in all subjects without exception throughout the entire school. There are boys like that in his school, and they are not his friends.

He may as well end up going for something else; I don't know - an art school? I certainly won't push him into anything

I also have a problem with this thing about 'loving maths' on this thread and also in English culture too. As you might guess, I am foreign. What I observed over years here is rather bad primary school education in maths and an idea that people are either 'good in maths' or not good. This is often decided in the primary, when all the maths encountered is arithmetic! I often see people having like a fog going over their eyes, if you tell them anything related to something perceived as mathematical. As if the brain switches at the first sight of maths. People are trained in this way culturally; and it's not like this in other countries. In many other countries people carry on doing maths until they are 18 at least

I might be wrong, but I don't think engineers are mathematicians, in how I understand mathematicians. I mean, really, they are not solving Fermat's theorem day in day out.

@ErrolTheDragon You mean Chemistry as a degree? That's interesting. Maybe! He loves chemistry and forever finding some videos explaining some chemical phenomena and he seems to know quite a bit.
Can you tell me a bit more about what people in this field do nowadays - apart from research route? And what kind of work there is and what is it like? (I don't know any chemists; I think some chemistry departments were very short-sightedly closed in the UK at some point? )

He also loves construction and from early age was soldering cars and assembling drones; he is good with microelectronics and knows lots of applied physics staff you need to produce a small moving vehicle.

I might be wrong, but I don't think engineers are mathematicians, in how I understand mathematicians. I mean, really, they are not solving Fermat's theorem day in day out.

No, I think it's more they need to be good at maths and willing and able to do some pretty hard stuff, using as tools of the trade.

Can you tell me a bit more about what people in this field do nowadays - apart from research route? And what kind of work there is and what is it like? (I don't know any chemists; I think some chemistry departments were very short-sightedly closed in the UK at some point? )

Lots of good chemistry depts stayed open though! As to what work ... again, lots of different paths. DH was in industry - high performance polymer development, getting towards materials science. I'm in a bit of a niche writing software, modelling chemistry eg how drugs interact with protein molecules using computers and maths.

DH feels a lot of design has become about computer programming and not enough about engineering. Engineers have to know what the design should be so they know the computer is correct. Putting in duff info results in poor design. Poor design is expensive to build. Poor design might have to be redesigned so the employer loses money. It doesn’t matter who you work for. Most companies need to make money and they won’t if mistakes are made. DH had a chartered structural engineer design a steel frame that was bigger than the actual building. It was a lot of work and the design was useless. Structural engineering tends to suit the engineers that are happy to sit in their teams beavering away - especially at the big consultancies. DH is FIStructE but doesn’t go near it these days.

A good place to get info about all branches of engineering is to look at the Engineering Council web site. It will then link you to the individual institutions and you can see what they offer to young people who are Interested. If he’s building things, then he’s an engineer!

If he really doesn't want to do Further Maths he might as well do the subjects he likes. (Have a 15 and 16 year old and know the how much they listen to me).

As long as he's doing the Maths/physics/Chemistry he has a good choice of engineering degree courses. Don't get hung up on Cambridge or "the best" courses. Many less impressive universities run extremely good engineering degrees and work closely with industry. I did the Cambridge engineering course and if I had my time again I'd have gone straight to a normal civil engineering degree at a university with a proper dedicated department like Imperial or Newcastle.

Big Bang Fairs, Engineering Council and the engineering institution websites have sections aimed at students on "What is engineering " etc. From your description he sounds like he would make a great engineer and never be out of work. But he may need to discover it for himself, when he's a little older. I had civil and aeronautical both in mind for a while and investigated them both before UCAS form time.

So in summary as long as doing the Maths and 2 sciences he might as well do Photography, I can't see it rules anything major out and gives him a useful creative edge. The only thing worth swapping it for would be Further Maths.

I would agree about maths, it's a tool to solve problems not something I studied for the love of it. IIRC Further Maths is not as much work as a whole different A level because it makes the normal Maths A level feel easy.

I am an architect, I'm a partner in a largish practice so can help you with undemanding subjects related to building engineering.

Architecture
The top uni is The Bartlet which is part of UCL. By far, all of the tip architects or firms led by what the media refer to as Starchitects come out of there. Its design led and hugely competitive to get into.

A couple of posters on here have mentioned Bath, that is an OK university for architecture but not considered to be very strong on design, ans is far more practical. Personally, I do not tend to recruit from Bath.

One point not mentioned here is to qualify is a long road, 3 year degree, 1 year minimum in practice, 2 year diploma, then 1 year part time. Most are around 26 at least when qualified. Engineerimg paths are much quicker.

Most architects are then junior for at least 5 years, large projects will often have students, a newly qualified architect, a project architect, a senior or associate and a partner. So it is important to be able to take instruction, and to work collaboratively with the rest of the design team (including engineers) Architects lead the rest of the design team, so civil engineers, mechanical and electrical engineers and structural engineers are led on projects by architects. Structural engineers are considered or treated with higher regard than mechanical and electrical engineers. Structural is maths based lots of calculations of how structures will behave. Architects do not do this, they are not insured to do it. Mechanical and electrical engineers design how the building will be serviced as the name suggests in both mechanical and electrical terms. They specialise generally in one or the other and then choose plant, inform architects of sizes for plant, distribution etc. Civil engineers are probably the bottom of the hierarchy and they design roads, road layouts, parking and communicate with tbe local authorities on those matters.

Studying architecture is considered hard but an enjoyable course if chosen correctly. Students work long hours, its subjective as it is design based and you have to be able to take or learn to take criticism. It isn't exam based, communication and confidence is extremely important during education and certainly as a role.

Combined Architecture and engineering courses again are not respected by architects so I wouldn't advise those.

Architecture is not anticipated to be automated any more than it is now, technology helps speed up drawing but much of the role is not drawing its collaborative working, designing, specifying materials, understanding legislative documents, running the design team and writing quite often engthy documents. And sadly like lots of roles now it is answering dozens of emails.

However, if you have been following Grenfell case its main threat is any mistake made can have enormous consequences and enormous costs associated. Insurance is very expensive and mistakes can end in the extreme in prison.

I might be wrong, but I don't think engineers are mathematicians, in how I understand mathematicians. I mean, really, they are not solving Fermat's theorem day in day out.

I’m a civil engineer. You are correct, engineers are not mathematicians in the purest sense, but strong mathematical skills are needed to undertake/understand applied engineering design and modelling.

@randomsabreuse Maths A level has changed a lot since you did it! I really wouldn’t recommend doing it without some enjoyment of the subject unless he is very naturally gifted and as he’s in set 2 that seems unlikely.
Engineering (certainly mechanical and civil, I don’t know much about chemical) has a very high mathematical content, it seems like that wouldn’t be the best choice for him.

@Marchitectmummy
Thank you so much for such a detailed and very helpful response. I know about Bartlett, -and the AA (pocket doesn't stretch wide enough for that)

One question though: form my research I understand that structural engineers are a sub-section of civil engineers? You study for a civil engineering degree and can specialise in structural? Your hierarchy confused me a little.

He is is set 2 maths of a selective school, where there might not be too much of a difference between sets 1 and 2. In maths, they have 6 sets, and in sciences - 3, and he is in the top.

I can ask the maths teacher at the parent evening if an A or A* at A level is on the horizon for set 2. I would be surprised if it's not. All previous communication indicated that they regularly get children achieving 9 even when they are in sets 4-5-6 for maths.

thats 9 at GSCE

Thanks @NotMeNoNo It's very good to see a wide range of options for engineering!

@istherelifeafter40

Thanks everyone! The problem with aerodynamics engineering in the UK, I am told, is that you end up designing war machines. But civil and environmental sounds great.

There is also the powerboat industry and motorsport that both employee large numbers of aerodynamicists and the often move between the two industries. My DP works in formula one that even though 7 teams are based here it is large numbers of aerodynamics. Several aerodynamicists have them move on to racing/performances engineers and even team principals.

Be very careful with motorsport. It’s wildly competitive to get into. It’s got engineers from all over the world.

I would like to correct the Architect about getting qualified as an Engineer - CEng. It’s rarely quicker than becoming a Chartered Architect. Being an Incorporated Engineer might be quicker but you are not comparing like with like. Most Engineers won’t be Chartered until they are 25 these days. The CPD has extended the post grad training for many. If you are BEng it will take longer than MEng.

Anyone who refuses to recruit from Bath for Architecture is not looking at university grads from the second highest ranked Architecture school - behind Cambridge at no 1 in the complete university guide. Sheffield and Strathclyde are above UCL. Times change and not everyone can go to UCL. Fortunately most Architecture practices know this and do not cut grads out when selecting by university attended. DH would never do this when recruiting engineers. It’s quite possible to find excellent people where you least expect them to be.

I should have said getting Chartered at 25 is very quick these days. Most are older.

@istherelifeafter40

He is is set 2 maths of a selective school, where there might not be too much of a difference between sets 1 and 2. In maths, they have 6 sets, and in sciences - 3, and he is in the top.

Sure, my DD was in set 2 at her GS but ended up doing better than anyone except the girl who got a place at Cambridge for maths. She improved, relatively, as it became more interesting maths, less arithmetic IYSWIM.

@istherelifeafter40

Thanks everyone! Thanks for the tips about architecture - it is one of those jobs most at risk at being "automated", isn't it...

It also seems that the consensus is that if he doesn't like maths, maths-based courses are not for him. I am not sure about this. In my opinion, if you "love maths", you become a mathematician. This is "loving maths." The rest of people use maths instrumentally, i.e. you learn it to the degree that you need, but you don't work on developing it. You just apply it. I don't think you need to love it to do so - you need to love what you are doing, for which you, among other things, need maths.

I think you're right about maths. Agree with other posters: maths/physics isnt too workl8ad heavy for 2 subjects, dont bother with biology if not interested, photography sounds a good balance, enjoyable and demonstrates creativity for architecture. If he dropped chemistry after AS it probably wouldnt matter unless he has set his heart on chemical engineering by then, which is essentially applied chemistry, very different from anything else 'engineering'.

Got A at chemistry A level as needed for biology at Imperial. Anything I know about engineering is indirect and through many engineer friends. BTW I wouldnt necessarily recommend imperial as a graduate myself.... its nice to have the balance of arts students (I stayed in intercollegiate halls which I would recommend) and as I think you've noticed from the 'obnoxiously named dyson institute ' it is very 'corporate' compared to other unis.

TBH I doubt if photography would be much help for architecture. It us usually under the portfolio of art subjects so very different from the sciences. Ideally given his future intentions he should be considering maths, further maths, physics and chemistry if he has to do 4 but most unis require only 3 so not sure why he would do 4.

To answer a question from far upthread, biochemical engineering (or genetic engineering, cell engineering etc) is completely different to the other engineering disciplines. You would need a degree in biochemistry or similar. A levels ideally biology, chemistry, maths, but maths could be swapped out if he didn't want to do it.
There are tons of jobs in the UK for life sciences, especially if you are in the technology hub of Oxford, Cambridge, London.

chemical engineering by then, which is essentially applied chemistry, very different from anything else 'engineering'.

It's different to the other eng fields but as a chemist I wouldn't really call it 'applied chemistry'. (DH was sometimes surprised that some excellent chemical engineers didn't seem to know that much chemistry.)

biochemical engineering (or genetic engineering, cell engineering etc) is completely different to the other engineering disciplines.

I thought a lot of of biochemical engineering was a sub-branch of chem eng but for biological chemical processes (often food related)? Though now there may be crossover with biotechnology.

In the throes of architecture applications here....

Be aware that is it normal to send in a portfolio as part of the application. This looks specifically at DRAWING skills (one does require some photos, but it is an outlier). In particular they seem to be looking for evidence of drawing 'from life', either of people or buildings, and evidence of representing things in different media (e.g. a 3D piece etc).

Some also require Art A-level (there is,.as others have said above, a continuum between design-based and engineering based courses, with Cambridge being an outlier as having a strong History focus). Those on the design-based end are more likely to require Art.

So if taking Photography, your DS would also need to keep up 'art' skills for the portfolio, and the 'double work' involved, especially with 4 A levels anyway, would be considerable.