A-level choices: engineering-----architecture

[istherelifeafter40]

DS has to choose 4 A-levels in November. He is not decided on what he wants to do as a career, but is leaning towards engineering - or architecture (quite a spread!) There seem to be myriads of different kinds of engineering - from mechanical, aerospace, electronic, civil, to biochemical. I don't know much about any of them. (Humanities person here).
I think he might also change his mind and decide to do natural sciences, for instance... I love the idea of natsoc at Cambridge - start wide and narrow down. I am generally against early specialisation...

Currently, he has 8 in maths and all sciences, but also in eng and photography that he loves. He also likes chemistry very much and says that physics is very easy. BUT he dislikes maths, although he does well in it and is in set 2 our of 6 in a selective school.

Our current choice is Maths, Chemistry, Physics and Photography (which would open architecture if he goes this way, but is a course-based work-intensive subject). He accepts that he "has to do maths" (not my doing)

or Maths, Chemistry, Physics and Biology (he dislikes biology, but I think it might be quite a different subject at A-level?).

The school also insists on EPQ, and he will be able to drop 1 A level but can continue with 4.

He is set very much against further maths, which as I understand rules out some of the best mechanical engineering courses or general engineering at cambridge, but can still be ok for the other unis. Imperial has dozens of kinds of engineering and they all require different A levels (and different grades, from A, A, A to AAA). How do you decide at 15?

Any advice? I am worried that doing 3 sciences and an artistic course-based work will be too heavy (+epq)! I wonder if it is too much science work and pressure in case he decides to do architecture (many courses don't specify A levels whatsoever).
He doesn't want to do any humanities' subjects though, or something like economics or politics...

Any advice or just a chat would be great

Thanks! Looking at Birmingham now. I am not sure I get it - what's the difference between doing a common first year and then branching off (Birmingham as you say) and general engineering which I assumed (and I also think I saw on some uni websites) was the same - doing common first year and then branching off? I didn't know you can have general engineering all the way through?

Another (probably very silly) question: what's the difference between chemical engineering and materials science & engineering?

I can see that in Birmingham you can do the general year for civil - mechanical, also robotics, etc - but chemical seems to be an entirely separate degree, same goes for materials

DDs doing general engineering- they carry on with a broader range of disciplines for longer before specialising. I'm not sure if all 'gen eng' degrees allow sufficient specialisation to get full accreditation in one branch.

Chemical engineering is (i think) the engineering required to make chemicals at industrial rather than lab scale. When you see a big chemical plant - the chemical engineers are the ones doing all sorts of calculations about fluid flow and heat and doing it safely. I believe some of the same skills are used in industrial food production.
Materials science/engineering is more about the properties of materials - designing and characterising new materials (generally solids used for various structures, small or large).

A further note re maths - DH was an industrial chemist, he said some of the chemical engineers seemed more like applied mathematicians, they had to do some very complex types of calculations.
DD is specialising in electrical &electronics - some of that's got hard maths too.

Ds is doing general at a RG uni and will specialise after common first year. It is very maths focussed. He did maths, physics & art. Lack of further maths ruled him out of several unis but he loves where he is. The best general engineering course is reputed to be Design Engineering at Bristol and whatever they say they're after, they're pretty likely to want maths, further maths, physics + 1 other. As others have said, architecture courses vary, so Bath (no.1 ranked) wants maths and physics but some others e.g. Kingston are much more arty.

Bath has one of the best architecture degrees so worth reading their information www.bath.ac.uk/courses/undergraduate-2020/architecture/bsc-architecture-including-placements/#entry-requirements
If he does photography he would have to build up his portfolio of drawing and models independently which would be quite a lot of extra work. As others have said architecture is a high risk profession but for those who have the joint talents of art and physics a very stimulating degree.

Another combination he could consider would be maths physics computer science (instead of chemistry) and DT/ photography.

Op i asked before
Have you checked he can physics without maths at his school

I'm very impressed by anyone studying engineering as a degree. One of my housemates at Durham studied engineering and it was like a 9-5 job, he'd toddle off to his 39 hours of lectures every morning at 8.30. I think he was a little envious of my friend studying English who had 6 hours of lectures a week, and the rest of us doing science and humanities with a much lighter workload. He went into a banking job after university.

My brother in law studied engineering at Bath and works as a structural engineer. He works harder than anyone I know (often until 3 in the morning) but feels his line of work is very underpaid relative to his skill levels and hours (and he's right).

I'm sure some kids love studying engineering, it is a big commitment relative to other degrees. That said, I'm in awe when my brother in law produces pages of beautiful looking calculations.

He is interested in engineering and architecture/design. What about aerodynamic engineering - ending up designing beautiful cars, beautiful cars or even aeroplanes or spacecraft to make them go faster. The Maths needs to be strong as there is lots of modelling using fluid dynamics and wind tunnels.

There are also some Civil Engineering and Architecture or Structural Engineering and architecture degrees. I expect they need maths.

One point which may be worth considering is that some students find maths more interesting as they get further into it (more maths, less arithmetic) - and as you begin to see what it's useful for.

I hate the snobbery over Russell groups. When I say my dd is at Surrey people fall silent. Fiw, Surrey was 5th on the table for engineering 3 years ago, one of the reasons she chose it. It's since slid down, no idea why. But at the end of the day she will have a accredited degree and most importantly a job.

Thanks everyone, very interesting and most useful!

I haven't asked the school about whether he can do physics without maths. I feel - and he feels - that not doing maths rules so many options out, that it's not an option. Some of his friends who are not good with maths are not doing maths and are focusing on architecture or design, for instance. He thinks (or maybe I do) that if he is one of those who CAN do maths, he might as well get some hard skills (as well).

Civil Engineering and Architecture or Structural Engineering is an interesting option. Maybe that would be the best fit for him. Bartlett has a course in architectural and engineering design. I am not sure if it's one of those recently introduced to attract a certain demographic of students without having any other clear aim, but I guess if it is accredited, it's OK.

He loves chemistry and he says that loves it because he sees its immediate applicability and usefulness. This might develop as he gets older. I also think the way some subjects are at GSCE level might put people off and actually the subjects themselves are quite different at the Uni level or even A level.

Aerodynamic engineering is attractive to him - but needs FM for entry,- he doesn't want to do it at this point. I also think doing FM at A level and doing much of the same maths later on at Uni as part of the degree (as I understand that this is how it is sometimes arranged) might be quite different (maturity, context, clear idea why he is doing this; etc)

Thanks for the pointers re: Bristol. This might be such a fun place to be a place. I wouldn't think that design engineering is an engineering degree! (shows my level of naivety)

dignit there was a poster up the thread who very strongly supported your point!

There are so many factors in play when choosing a place to study. Where it is is important - Bristol or Brighton is a great place to live as a student. I am not sure DS would want to go north. Surrey you either have to commute or live locally in a commuter belt - could be a decision factor.

Obviously, it is important to have good education, but I think it is also important not to lose perspective. I've done a degree in something quite different to what I teach now as an academic. It's a long journey and the uni part is only the beginning. And also just going through life you know that happiness and success and fulfilment don't often correlate to the reputation of the Uni you went to - it becomes such a minor thing as you move on in life!

It may (possibly) be that the 'RG' tag makes some difference for students doing some sort of arts/humanities degree with the intention of going into some sort of 'graduate scheme' which doesn't require specific skills. I don't think that reflects well on recruiters.

STEM isn't really like that. For engineering, there are many excellent courses at non-RG unis (Surrey as mentioned, Bath, Loughborough just off the top of my head and not exhaustive!) and appropriate for different types of applicant. Links to industry may be important, which factors in to where some of the good engineering departments are located (nowadays for some fields 'industry' will include science parks).

DS went to Surrey for ME in 2015 and wouldnt recommend it, they started taking way too many students, they were having to use local cinemas because the lecture halls were too small, library overcrowded putting freshers out of town and there was absolutely no pastoral care. DS dropped out in the end

DH is a civil and structural engineer and also works on highways and environmental engineering. There are always jobs for engineers and university doesn’t matter too much. Ability to do the job accurately and quickly does! DH is an employer and has interviewed and employed hundreds of engineers down the years! It’s a mid sized consultancy. DH has worked with very many architects. Few architects trust themselves to do the calcs for their complex buildings!

However for any of these careers, he needs maths. There are great courses at Bath for Architecture but other universities re great choices too. The profession fluctuates though and continued work isn’t guaranteed in times of depression.

Ditto Civil and Structural engineering. Environmental engineering (part of civil engineering) is the big thing right now. Structural engineering is very maths based and computer programs are what it’s all about. If he likes buildings, he needs to consider if he’s interested in the design of buildings or doing the calcs to make them stand up!

Maths and Physics gets him anywhere he wants to go . I wouldn’t recommend general engineering for most students. And aerodynamicists cannot find work! So few jobs out there. If he’s interested in the built environment he should look at Civil and Structural Engineering. Building Services engineering is also an option. Look at MEng courses if you can and they must be accredited. Sheffield, Bristol, Southampton, Nottingham, Leeds, Bath, Loughborough, Portsmouth, Surrey and Warwick are all excellent for Civil Engineering. Not sure about Architecture!

All engineers can make money if they are commercially minded and even run a company! Sitting in an office until 3am really isn’t required!

Ds is doing Civil Engineering. It is a very broad course everywhere & you can go into many different specialties. However when we were looking around it became apparent that most courses are slightly skewed in a particular direction, often depending on what was going on in the local area historically.

Ds ended up preferring 2 courses where there is a lot of collaboration with the Architecture Dept - Bath (where he is) and Sheffield (which was his insurance).

But as someone else said, it does not matter too much in terms of future career where you study (I can vouch for that having done the same degree).

My gut feeling is that there are generally more jobs available for engineers rather than architects.

Have a look at headstart courses for next summer- not sure if they will be on line or face to face but they are an excellent opportunity to explore what engineering is and is different routes.
Also many unis do study days/ taster days for different subjects- again who knows what will happen next year.
Loads on line about becoming an engineer. Look at the Big Bang fair- will be on line this year.

All engineers can make money if they are commercially minded and even run a company!

Not necessarily their own, of course - some go into managing manufacturing, that type of thing.

Thanks everyone! The problem with aerodynamics engineering in the UK, I am told, is that you end up designing war machines. But civil and environmental sounds great.

I think doing an MEng in Mechanical Engineering gives a good base for a career in many areas, my son did his at Leeds, in the fourth year they specialise in an area of Engineering that interests them. He went on to do a phd and works as a research and development scientist and throughly enjoys it. They do need to be good at maths though.

For the avoidance of doubt, I wasn't implying that you need to be sat in an office at 3am to make money from engineering. Nor that engineers can't be well paid. Of course they can.

Simply that my brother in law works incredibly hard for a salary that he feels doesn't reflect how highly qualified he is and his level of seniority. It's not for lack of looking for alternative jobs in his industry either.

In these extraordinary times flexibility is good- so many of my dds friends with excellent degrees from a v good uni in aero engineering have had their grad scheme roles cancelled.

Trying to think of a gentle way to say this, can't - shouldn't your DS be the one doing the research into what he wants to do? It sounds like you're getting info ready so you can direct him in the area that you think he should go.

He's old enough to do all his own background research into subjects, careers, universities, etc.

DS1 studied aerospace and spacecraft design engineering (literally rocket science). Those who didn’t have A levels in FM and Chemistry had to do additional courses in the first year to bring their knowledge up to standard.

DS2 has a MEng in Mechanical Engineering with an emphasis on manufacturing systems and robotics.

Maths is central to both these degrees, and I think that if your DS doesn’t enjoy maths then these type of engineering courses would not be for him.

Both DS are post grads and both still use high level maths in their engineering jobs. However both have loved maths from primary school!

Btw re becoming a mathematician - DS1 went to an open day at Bristol Uni in Y12. The lecturer explained that the pure maths degree suits those who love the elegance of maths. Whereas engineers use the maths to make real things. At that point DS realised he would prefer engineering!

He loves chemistry and he says that loves it because he sees its immediate applicability and usefulness. This might develop as he gets older. I also think the way some subjects are at GSCE level might put people off and actually the subjects themselves are quite different at the Uni level or even A level.

Just backtracking to this for a moment - is there any reason he isn't leaning towards chemistry? Some branches of chemistry need good maths but others don't - well, like all stem subjects some is needed including a grasp of statistics but not everyone needs to do particularly tricky stuff and uni courses will include maths options. (I'm a chemist)