A-level choices: engineering-----architecture

[istherelifeafter40]

DS has to choose 4 A-levels in November. He is not decided on what he wants to do as a career, but is leaning towards engineering - or architecture (quite a spread!) There seem to be myriads of different kinds of engineering - from mechanical, aerospace, electronic, civil, to biochemical. I don't know much about any of them. (Humanities person here).
I think he might also change his mind and decide to do natural sciences, for instance... I love the idea of natsoc at Cambridge - start wide and narrow down. I am generally against early specialisation...

Currently, he has 8 in maths and all sciences, but also in eng and photography that he loves. He also likes chemistry very much and says that physics is very easy. BUT he dislikes maths, although he does well in it and is in set 2 our of 6 in a selective school.

Our current choice is Maths, Chemistry, Physics and Photography (which would open architecture if he goes this way, but is a course-based work-intensive subject). He accepts that he "has to do maths" (not my doing)

or Maths, Chemistry, Physics and Biology (he dislikes biology, but I think it might be quite a different subject at A-level?).

The school also insists on EPQ, and he will be able to drop 1 A level but can continue with 4.

He is set very much against further maths, which as I understand rules out some of the best mechanical engineering courses or general engineering at cambridge, but can still be ok for the other unis. Imperial has dozens of kinds of engineering and they all require different A levels (and different grades, from A, A, A to AAA). How do you decide at 15?

Any advice? I am worried that doing 3 sciences and an artistic course-based work will be too heavy (+epq)! I wonder if it is too much science work and pressure in case he decides to do architecture (many courses don't specify A levels whatsoever).
He doesn't want to do any humanities' subjects though, or something like economics or politics...

Any advice or just a chat would be great

DS does not like free drawing or sculpture (Art), but he can do excellent technical drawing, modelling, etc. I had a quick chat with his photography teacher who said photography is a something like a sub-subject within Art and Design A level, and DS can apply for architecture with it.

@MagpiePi
If you don't mind, can you tell a bit more about different engineering disciplines and whether one needs to choose from the start, and how one chooses? Thank you very much

I found the most useful A levels for my engineering degree were Maths, Physics & Economics. With the economics, I didn't have to do any work for that subject at uni as I'd done it all and I found it a piece of cake at Alevel. But everyone is different

How about product design engineering at Loughborough university?

It covers lots of different engineering disciplines plus there’s a lot of technical drawing in it for the design element.

www.lboro.ac.uk/study/undergraduate/courses/a-z/product-design-engineering-beng/

My dd did maths physics and chemistry plus epq. Studying aerospace engineering at Surrey. She wishes she had done further maths as felt like everyone was ahead of her.
She's also done a placement year and has gained so much confidence and has a grad job lined up.

At Surrey the first year is general then you diversify

I think he might also change his mind and decide to do natural sciences, for instance... I love the idea of natsoc at Cambridge - start wide and narrow down

BUT he dislikes maths

DS is in the first year of this course, studying physical natural sciences (physics, chemistry, materials science). The university can't ask for Further Maths A-level as an entry requirement, because many schools and sixth form colleges don't offer it. However, most applicants are taking Further Maths. In DS's offer, Further Maths was the only subject where they specified that he had to get an A*. Both interviews involved a lot of difficult maths. Now that he has started the course, he can see why. He said the most useful thing he did over the summer in terms of preparation was to teach himself extra Further Maths A-level modules which his school didn't choose as curriculum options.

Be aware that jobs can be difficult to come by in architecture.
SIL got MArch, Part 3 and just about holding on to his job. Many of his year never got a job offer in architecture post qualification. A third of his firm's architects have been let go in the last year.

I wouldn’t encourage him to choose something he dislikes school is hard enough.
DS 16 doesn’t know what he wants to do and still doesn’t.
He is in year 12 and could have chosen almost anything for A levels, they did EPQ in lockdown (which has been handed in and is now thankfully out of the way). He choose Maths, Further Maths, Physics and French. I tried to sway him towards Chemistry or History rather than French but he’s always enjoyed French and was set on his subjects. Like others have said he finds a lot of crossover with Maths and Physics, but as he enjoys Maths and likes to be challenged he finds this a bit easy/boring.
I think he wishes he had chosen Chemistry (but all the kids he knows who have taken it find it very difficult) or History rather than French. But he loves Further Maths and is enjoying this the most.

Thanks everyone! Thanks for the tips about architecture - it is one of those jobs most at risk at being "automated", isn't it...

It also seems that the consensus is that if he doesn't like maths, maths-based courses are not for him. I am not sure about this. In my opinion, if you "love maths", you become a mathematician. This is "loving maths." The rest of people use maths instrumentally, i.e. you learn it to the degree that you need, but you don't work on developing it. You just apply it. I don't think you need to love it to do so - you need to love what you are doing, for which you, among other things, need maths.

I have 2 kids who have done/doing engineering degrees. Both are good at maths, but certainly at 15 i’m not sure they would declared they loved maths.
First one did maths, physics, art. Did mech eng at Russell group, part way through wondered if civil would have been a better fit. Now doing a PhD that would possibly be more aligned to aeronautical.
Second one did maths, physics and biology and an EPQ. He is doing general engineering at a Russell group ( would have liked to apply for general at Cambridge but they required further maths and it hadn’t crossed his mind back in y11)
The general engineering degree is a great option in my mind as they start doing all the different branches so more have much more knowledge about what each of them entails when they finally specialise.

Good engineering websites :

www.thisisengineering.org.uk/ (follow them on twitter too)

Meet the future you quiz (haven’t done it, but assume it directs you towards particular strands of engineering ) : www.tomorrowsengineers.org.uk/meet-the-future-you-careers-quiz/

There were people in my school who went on to study maths - they obviously loved maths for its own sake, got interested in proofs, pure maths, long way sideways from the curriculum.

Then there were those who enjoyed some elements of maths, particularly what it could do. I really liked mechanics and basic "useful" pure maths. Not interested in the more obscure end of pure maths as an art.

Wish I'd had the chance to do more stats, my school didn't do that much even in further maths.

I enjoyed the applied bits of maths as a useful tool. I enjoyed the cleverness of differential equations but was never going to want to do detailed proofs and clever thinking

@Loshad
Very nice to hear about your sons! Could you please point me to RG that offer general engineering?

@StilllGardening
Super thanks for the links!

He is at Sheffield
I don’t think there are many if I remember the open day talk there, obviously as he didn’t have further maths Imperial and Cambridge were out.
Can you find out via the ucas website if there are any others?

He'll be fine with further maths if he uses eg Khan Academy online for support. EPQ a waste of time for most engineering degrees. Some universities eg Birmingham are you stick with the engineering degree that you started on. Others like Warwick are flexible. Maybe ditch chemistry for double maths? Then he can keep his love of photography

If he is interested in engineering the arkwright scholarship for 6th form applications start about now

www.arkwright.org.uk/
Its not a huge amount if money but my DS got some great experiences through Arkright

RG isn't the be all & end all for engineering.

Thanks, I think he is being entered for Arkright through his school.

I looked and tonnes of places offer general engineering, including Durham, York, Warwick, Sheffield, Kings. That's a relief!

He's just done the quiz proposed above and got both structural engineering and materials engineering.

That's now looking all very exciting and less scary! Thanks everyone

@Svalberg
I know RG is a narrow group, there are other research intensive universities that are too small for RG (I work in one); they used to have a group of their own. I worked across all different universities in the UK, from ex-poly to top ten, to more quirky, and I don't have any illusions and hopefully not too much of a rose-tinted glasses about them.

Seriously, we want students who have some experience of working life, we sponsor and employ from all sorts of universities, especially those with strong links to industry. Most engineering students don't go into research. Most lecturers have had some experience of industry, and can make more money in the private sector. RG means bugger all to us! I can honestly say that I'd never seen so much emphasis placed on RG until I started looking at mumsnet. It may be different in pharmaceutical & electronics, but in the civil/mech sector you really need to think about what your child wants to do. My latest placement student is from a non-RG uni, but top 10, so more highly rated than most RG ones.

Svalberg, which ranking do you use when you say top ten for engineering?

Rankings do play a role in student psyche - my Uni is ranked slightly lower than Kings, and I know for a fact that students first apply to Kings for my specific subject over my place because they can't resist the shine of ranking, even if it doesn't make any sense at all (they'd be looking at overall ranking not discipline-specific)

I know most people teaching my thing at Kings, and I think my team is better, and I like working where I am much more.

The last thing you say: what the child wants to do - well, who knows??

Some universities eg Birmingham are you stick with the engineering degree that you started on.

I'm not sure that's correct now - this is one of the unis which now does a common first year before they branch off into specialism. (They weren't doing this a few years ago when DD was figuring out where to go, she's a 4th year now)

www.birmingham.ac.uk/schools/engineering/courses/undergraduate.aspx

This type of arrangement may suit someone who isn't sure which field to go into but doesn't want to do general engineering as such.

I've somewhat skimmed the thread - have Smallpeice and Headstart been recommended yet to give some more idea on what he wants to do yet op? I don't suppose they'll be running all their usual courses but maybe that will mean there's more available online. Worth a look on their websites anyway.

Rankings - it's in the top 10 of about all the uk ones (T, ST, Guardian, etc) But we tend to go off the support that students get when on their placement from the uni, and past performance of students. We don't specifically look at rankings as they're tbh not always a good indication of student performance, we have a list of courses that are recommended, and ones that are approved for CEng membership

The guardian tables are overly reliant on things like student satisfaction rather than more objective metrics - they're way off base in my subject.
When he gets further down the line, if he's doing engineering he should check the accreditation of courses he's interested in - there's a big spreadsheet somewhere on the IET website. But that's not something to worry about yet awhile.