11+ What are the schools looking for?

[ClaireSage]

Hi,

I probably will be asking some silly questions. We’re new to the whole 11+ process. It is really beginning to stress me out. Our DD is a little above average testing-wise. She’s outgoing, well-rounded, musical, loves drama, enjoys creative writing, does well academically, plays some sport, and is very funny. Maths isn’t her forte but she doesn’t do poorly necessarily.

Are the secondary schools really only looking at test scores? If she doesn’t do well on a test, will it be game over for her?

What does St Paul’s for Girls, Godolphin, GDST schools look for? What kind of scores do the girls need to have?

What about Channing, Queens College and Francis Holland?

I feel really lost. We’re applying to at least 7 schools. The headmaster literally told us St Paul’s won’t happen. But maybe it’s worth a try? She likes it because it’s more on the creative side than some of the other schools. I know, I’m crazy right?

This is way harder than I thought. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I’m afraid a little above average won’t be good enough for St Paul’s. Your Head is right so why stress everyone out going for a school that’s not suitable. I’m not sure a little above average is what any of the listed schools look for if I’m honest. There are others which might be far more sensible, eg The Harrodian. If you are at a private school, where do they recommend? Go with that.

I have a SS at St Paul's School and my older daughter is at St Paul's girls. Doing the 11+ for other DD now aiming for St Paul's or CLSG and my youngest is at another selective independent hoping to move to Godolphin when the time comes because as far as the head is concerned she wouldn't cut it for St Paul's or CLSG thus far, as he said, she's not made for that sort of pressure, this is despite the fact that she's scoring 135+ on CATS though not in year 6 so that might change.

The school is extremely competitive, and no matter what they say, once the girls are in they are expected to do better and/or keep up, average wouldn't cut it and it would be a struggle for any child who isn't extremely academic.

When it comes to music and sports and this is particularly with St Paul's anything below grade 5 or county level is just a "hobby" so no scholarship and no particular praise. My daughter is on grade 6 Cello and 7 piano and she only got the scholarship for cello presumedly as it's less popular but didn't cut it for piano. She also got a sports scholarship but that's because it was for swimming (county level).

The interview questions are also ridiculous for any 10/11 year old. My daughter was asked what she would have done differently if she had been Margaret Thatcher in the 80's, what her contribution would be to the school, given an iPhone and asked to tell them everything she knew about it and how she would improve it etc. A lot of current affair questions, questions on how she would spend £1000 and why she chose to spend it that way. It was brutal according to my DD. We had been warned and DH had previous experience with DSS so we were somewhat prepared. Otherwise I am not sure how we would have prepared for some of the questions!

Once in, it is constant work and the girls are extremely competitive so you have to be tough to survive and keep up with the work. Francis Holland, St James, Queen’s College all very good schools and less academically challenging but very good in other areas.

Oh and when DD sat for St Paul's the math paper had 3 sections A, B and C. As we were then told any child average at math would have only managed paper A. You could try and test your child with their old papers. Paper C is dreadful for any child very good at Math especially under timed conditions. So I believe a child who isn't very good at math would really struggle to complete their entrance exam, the English paper was not too bad but a keen eye is kept on vocabulary.

I agree I wouldn’t bother with St Paul’s Girls. The type who gets in is grade 6-8 on 2/3 instruments, Head girl, sports too and very strong academically. Or just incredibly strong academically but with good enough social skills or some amazing sport talent. So once there unless you are naturally competitive and academically gifted it could be quite demotivating. It is best to think about what kind of school your child will be happiest at and in at least the upper average cohort. Feeling less able than others won’t boost confidence and one of the main strengths of private education is confidence boosting. Most good private schools will bring out the best in your child academically and ensure she achieves good grades. Channing is meant to be more caring but not sure it is easy to get into. Jags is another good girls also fairly academic&sporty etc but not as hard to get into as St Paul’s girls. GDST school’s are good too but vary academically, for example Putney High is more academic than some others. Your headmaster should really be advising you on narrowing a suitable list down.

Hang on a sec, I have quite a few adult friends who went to St. Paul’s. They are bright, but not scarily so. Have standards changed? the women I know are not these Fabulous grade 8 musicians, sporty, head girl all rounders. One is academic, but crap at sport, very shy. Two are reasonably academic but now not self employed writers and scraping by. One is quite arty, but not at all intellectually challenging. Or maybe I just know all the misfits, LOL. Actually, this is a genuine question: since I also went to a great school, and wonder if I’d get in now. And in that fabled mumsnet style, I never even saw a past paper before sitting the test...

Standards have changed generally (at least in London not sure about the rest of the country) for entrance exams for most if not all selective schools. The process is stressful, competition is stiff, tutors are on high demand, I know people who have tutored since year 1 and some who have been preparing for 11+ for years (though we didn't opt for that but we were given past papers by our school and most schools have them on their websites now), every single child, at least the ones I know either plays an instrument if not more than one and takes part in sport, drama, extra language classes bla bla list is endless. Of course all of this doesn't determine future academic or any other success.

As mentioned above, the likes of St Paul's wouldn't really be suitable. A school like Channing sounds possible, however. It's a fairly local school to us and the girls going there are bright girls but not the top from our state primary (they go to CLSG or grammar etc). I would definitely think that your DD would have a great chance at Channing.

Even the GDST school vary considerably.

Where are you based - have you thought about the commute to school?

Even the GDST school vary considerably.

Where are you based - have you thought about the commute to school?

Actually I believe Brot64 may be exaggerating slightly about how able the St Paul’s girls are. Having said that, a friend’s DD went to SPGS and from day 1 told her mother she felt stupid. She wasn’t of course but felt like it. She ended by with serious MH issues so be cautious of choosing a school that is too academic.

Wow this is blowing my mind. I went to state school and was always the top of the class. That was in South Germany, where all secondaries are selective, but hilariously, if you're from a white German middle class professional family, and are moving midyear, your dad writes a letter to the headmaster and you're accepted... I couldn't put my kids through this level of testing. They'll just have to be plumbers then!

Do really listen to the advice from your prep school! They have years of experience in doing this so take advantage of that. They should know what type of child she is and where she will.blossom, so look at what they recommend and maybe one/two others that are similar type.

If she's "a little above average" - do you mean for tests on a national scale (so, say 110 on cats), or do you mean for those entering for selective schools? Again, your prep school should be able to give you this information.

Your daughter will be successful if she is in the right environment for her. Don't be blinded by big name schools if she isn't resilient enough to take the pressure. She should enjoy her education too! Find somewhere that suits her strengths, and she will flourish.

Tootletum the London selective private schools scene is a world unto itself and bears no relationship to the U.K. secondary education system as a whole. I accidentally stumbled across threads on here about it a few years ago when my DD was taking the eleven plus for state schools, which is a very different thing.

Actually no I didn't exaggerate. I have gone through the process for St Paul's once and I am doing it again this year, we were actually hoping they would switch to assessing via ISEB but alas it will be CEM which is more difficult. I am not suggesting that every single girl that goes there excels (i couldn't possibly know this) in everything far from it, but I know that academics are seriously taken there and I know it's not an environment for a child just above average. The pressure to succeed even between the children is palpable.

My last one for example wouldn't be happy there and as the head told us with a 135+ CATs score and all the activities she does she may make it in but it's unlikely she will survive without a struggle. She has no care for competition and that's fine. My other two (older one already there) and DSS at St Paul's boys are very academic and it comes easy to them, they are confident and happy there and the head recommended St Paul's for the one moving on to secondary next year.

The reality is that it's an extremely competitive environment which requires a certain type of child who can thrive and benefit from such an environment and that's not all children. There are so many other good schools in London that cater to all abilities.

@Tootletum I am also German albeit from the north, and I went to my closest Gymnasium. No assessments needed although I did do a lot of out of school activities more for pleasure than anything. I only felt the pressure because my parents wanted me to go to a US university which I did and was happy to do.

When I moved to London and had kids I thought this was all madness but after missing a nursery place because my DD was not as attentive as they expected, here I am very much involved with what is now the norm with London schools.

@Brot64 yeha it's weird the sort of selective non selection! Of course I felt the pressure at gymnasium too, I wanted to do well and go to uni in the UK. Just glad I don't live in London now, although of course my friends do all this stuff with Channing etc. Maybe we're just not ambitious for them but I can't imagine any of it.

Brot64 I also have a dd at SPGS, and I don’t recognise it from your description. She’s not G6-8 on an instrument, not sporty, not super competitive (more competitive against herself). She’s very able academically, but no genius. And she loves it there.

OP If you think your dd would enjoy a liberal, creative, highly academic environment then go for it. My dd wasn’t at a prep, so I don’t know how much reliance to place on the Head’s recommendation. We just took a punt, coming from a state primary, and it paid off.

@HighRopes, never implied the children are geniuses, and I don't think mine are. However I do think and believe that there's a different attitude towards academics and commitment required for it that is needed at St Paul's that is far greater than other selective schools. Also we were applying for sports and music scholarships and were dismissed for piano despite DD being in grade 7 so I can only assume there were better applicants at a higher grade or they interviewed better. Again I will never know, I can only speak about our experience.

@Tootletum same actually, it was and still is a very interesting experience because in Germany at least the north you always have the option of Gymnasium, Real or Gesamt and that's measured by ability or interest and it's so automatic no entrance exams. Switching schools is so easy as well, a letter suffices . I cannot remember a time where I sat for entrance exams particularly as I was in a gymnasium from the get go so the most important exam was the Abitur which was stressful enough.

I also remember that we were never tutored. We had a scheme where the brightest would go to the closest university at 16 to try out subjects they were good at and also an apprenticeship scheme I did 3 weeks at Otto and 2 weeks at my father's company and then an evaluation assessment. That was it. It was also seen that "problematic " children went to private schools or diplomats to international schools, but everyone else went to the common gymnasium, Realschule etc. Huge difference in London.

As said above, if you are at a prep school, listen to the advice of the school/ Head. They know your child and know what’s required for each school.

@Brot64 yeah I know, in Germany private school kids were rich thickos who needed a bit more teaching to get the right NC, or wanted the social connections. I only ever met 1 who went to Salem.
In Baden-Württemberg there was a test from Grundschule, but it seemed like it was just advisory. I never sat it.
I think part of my total laissez fair attitude comes from my view of the much lower standards that seem to be required by the UK syllabus at A level. I struggled a bit with partial differentiation in Yr 11 (ie pre 6th form) and showed my English maths teacher auntie. She said that was a level of maths they did in 1st and 2nd year maths degrees. When I swapped to the UK system in 6th form, I basically had nothing to learn (other than a better accent and boarding school weirdness), and took most of my A levels early. I'm clever, but no genius.

@Tootletum yes from my experience and even though people rave about the IB system, the German Abi is much more difficult. Interestingly the stress is not there maybe because everyone aims for the same thing, I mean we all wanted to do well that's why we were in gymnasium because we all wanted to go to uni, but it wasn't the make all or break all. I don't know, but I am more stressed now choosing for my kids than I was in Germany for myself. I just knew I had to perform well for my Abi and the rest would be okay and actually majority of us did very well. But those that didn't, didn't fail at life they successfully sought other avenues.

I know it's still the same now because I have a nephew in Hannover (I am from Hamburg) and he is not as stressed as my kids and neither are his parents. Weirdly I feel that in the German system despite the delay to enter Grundschule etc we were smarter and more all rounded and certainly happier. But this is the Uk or maybe just London system so adjust one must.

@Brot64 well yeah Gymnasium was designed solely for tertiary education. I knew people at Realschule from primary who went on to very successful business ventures, I guess for me it was just that my parents were professors, so academia was all they knew. It was never even about money or career or status, just knowledge as a virtue. My biggest fear with private school here is the increasing social engineering in university applications. No point spending all that time and effort if it's all about levelling up the poor results of some comps at UCAS time. I often wonder if my DH would still have got in from Manchester Grammar now.

I agree with jeanne16 that brot16 may give a not exactly accurate impression that everyone at SPGS is totally and equally Uber skilled and crazy smart. This said brot16 is essentially right that at the competitive end of the spectrum of anything, be it music, sports, art or anything else for that matter eg drama or simply social skills , the level of the best 5-10 pc of students at SPGS is very high indeed. For this reason also, the more one can shine across as many facets of life, the more one feels at home and vice versa. One better know who they are and be cool with that at SPGS. Being unremarkable could be a tough place to be simply because a perfectly capable child may develop confidence Issues which is the opposite of the private school’s principal objective. This does not stop many people trying and sometimes succeeding in getting into a wrong school, often at high costs to all concerned. Hence the advice from others here is spot on. Other schools you mention are significantly more relaxed in terms of having a much broader range of people and attitudes and are perfectly fine in my opinion for someone who is yet to find themselves. The difference is the current popularity of a particular school and getting a high enough place on the pecking order of candidates to secure an offer. Godolphin is super popular right now, followed by the best GDST schools (SHHS, Putney), followed by FH and Channing. If you are super worried you can also consider Queens College.

I'd also agree about the impression some people have of St Paul's. I don't have a DD there but know a fair few who go there. They are all clever but several are very shy, none were head girl (came from State schools so often no such thing), couple played an instrument but grade 4ish, and none remotely sporty. I think its a bit of a myth you have to be amazing at everything- they know what they are looking for. All the girls I know are happy there.
My DD is at another selective girls school. There are girls who are v bright and amazing at music etc etc and have the scholarships but there are also lots of girls who are bright but not particularly sporty, not particularly musical etc etc. Just normal 12 year olds!