11+ What are the schools looking for?

[ClaireSage]

Hi,

I probably will be asking some silly questions. We’re new to the whole 11+ process. It is really beginning to stress me out. Our DD is a little above average testing-wise. She’s outgoing, well-rounded, musical, loves drama, enjoys creative writing, does well academically, plays some sport, and is very funny. Maths isn’t her forte but she doesn’t do poorly necessarily.

Are the secondary schools really only looking at test scores? If she doesn’t do well on a test, will it be game over for her?

What does St Paul’s for Girls, Godolphin, GDST schools look for? What kind of scores do the girls need to have?

What about Channing, Queens College and Francis Holland?

I feel really lost. We’re applying to at least 7 schools. The headmaster literally told us St Paul’s won’t happen. But maybe it’s worth a try? She likes it because it’s more on the creative side than some of the other schools. I know, I’m crazy right?

This is way harder than I thought. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I'll DM you so I can explain more. My daughter was already at a top school and we could have kept her there. In terms of nurturing it's been amazing so far. The other families I know say the same. Pastoral care has also been brilliant. I'm not sure it's the same experience for everyone, but when we needed it... they delivered. Teaching has been very good so far. Lessons have been made fun and there is a lot of laughter. For us, the American University side appealed, rather than Oxbridge, although this may obviously change as she heads towards exams. They link up with the boys school further up the school (and other local state and independent schools). What isn't advertised is exactly how much they give back to the local community, especially the local state schools. Due to the pandemic, this has increased.

For us, it's a special school and although more expensive, we are very happy she is a student there.

When people say “top at primary in everything academic without having to try all that hard” I simply don't believe it.

@Tommomum

When people say “top at primary in everything academic without having to try all that hard” I simply don't believe it.

You don't believe children like this exist or you don't believe all girls at SPGS can be described as such? They definitely do exist.

Fellow German here who went to a local gymnasium and later to uni in UK. I just put my daughter through the 11+ in North London and it's total and utter madness compared to the German system I'm used to.

Tommomum
It probably happens more at middle of the road or poor performing schools than at Academic Prep/state schools but then again every one is a parent to little geniuses online.

A PP said something that really struck a nerve, she said stop trying to discourage people from applying and I could not agree more. It's the same attitude I and my friends face whenever we try to encourage state students to apply to Oxbridge. There is always a teacher, parent or adult that tries to discourage a clearly bright child from applying as if the worst they'll get is not a "No". Thankfully we have seen attitudes change overtime.

@Tommomum

When people say “top at primary in everything academic without having to try all that hard” I simply don't believe it.

That's your prerogative but I can assure you there are children like that out there who find it comes effortlessly at that age. Later they get a shock when they realise it no longer works and real effort is needed.

XelaM

I know quite a lot of germans both in the UK and Germany and all of them seem to have attended Gymnasiums. Never mind Hauptschules, I can't think of any that attended Realschules. I know approx 30% of secondary pupils attend Gymnasiums so is mine just because they all come from Middle Class homes?

I like the German system of 30% attending grammars and 40% just a level below. It can work in the UK but that will put a lot of the Tier 3 and 4 (Elite public schools plus Tier 1 and 2 Indies should survive)independent schools out of business. Don't see that going down to well.

@Tommomum I do understand your scepticism but can guarantee you, as @enola says that those kids do exist. One of my DC is absolutely like this: effortlessly good at school work, sails through tests etc at this stage (she's year 6 now). Older DC is a totally different kettle of fish: has to work much harder, not as thick-skinned and is better suited to a v different school environment.

But it's so important that the ones who find it easy at this stage are given challenging work as soon as possible otherwise they come to believe that school is just about turning up and getting everything right. There's a very real risk that when they do encounter a real challenge having found everything very easy thus far, that they just crumple and waste their potential. That's why SPGS, in my view, and other schools like it work really well for children who get in comfortably (and need that challenge) but not those who are pushed really hard to get there.

@Elij00 Absolutely. What made the German system so good (at least 20-ish years ago when I was at school) was that there was a huge number of gymnasiums in all parts of town (at least where we lived) and there was no insane pressure of 10+ kids per place. As long as you had good grades at primary, you were guaranteed a place. You could also change from Realschule to Gymnasium at a later stage if your grades were good enough. It was a very normal system.

@Tommomum Your scepticism is nonsense I'm afraid. As others have said, those children do exist! Unfortunately it doesn't apply to my own kid, but it did apply to my dad who had a photographic memory, read/memorised the encyclopaedia for fun and was one of those "wonder kids" who found school extremely boring because he never had a lift a finger and knew more than the teachers, so he acted out at times and was never liked by the teachers. He was lazy and never had to work hard at school.

He also got top marks in an entrance exam to read Maths at the best/most competitive uni in Moscow for which kids were tutored for years and found the exam questions surprisingly easy (over 50% of the entrants failed the exam and of the rest literally only a handful got top marks). And none of this was down to his parents who absolutely had no time for him and never helped him with anything.

Kids like that do exist.

It's a bit like when people on MN say 'my child passed the 11+ without any tutoring'. Again, I don't believe a word of it.

@Tommomum It's a bit silly to say you don't believe something just because it doesn't apply to your situation. Like I said, my own daughter is not a kid to whom academia comes easily, but I definitely know kids and family members to whom it does/did.

I was no genius, but I also found school very easy when I was a child and had never been tutored for any school-related exams (albeit this was in Germany). I left school with top marks and went on to study at a RG uni in London. It's not impossible to imagine that there are kids out there who are naturally academic.

@Tommomum amazing though it is, these kids definitely do exist. My sister was one, my son is one. They sail. It’s very annoying.

@Tommomum, “It's a bit like when people on MN say 'my child passed the 11+ without any tutoring'. Again, I don't believe a word of it.“

Completely agree! And if it’s the truth, they are absolutely the exception. Living in a grammar county, my experience of children going into it cold is that none have passed. Whether it’s graduate level parents tutoring with books or 2 years worth of private tutoring, these are the kids that get in. Which basically means we have a superior education system for middle class pupils funded by the taxpayer.

@Tommomum but why would people bother lying on an anonymous forum?

I absolutely agree that the majority are tutored and have to work really hard for the 11+. As I say one of my DC is one of them and for that reason we didn't bother putting with 11+ for her because she would have hated the whole thing. The other one finds this stuff pretty easy in fact I'd go as far as to say she enjoys it. She did actually have a tutor for an hour a week for the year before exams but no homework and she really did just take it in her stride. She is not alone - I know a few kids like it and some who had no tutoring but still passed. I wouldn't even say they are necessarily the brightest in the broad sense of the word either, just the ones whose natural skill set fits well with the way we currently test ability, probably a lot to do with focus and the ability to work quickly etc

I absolutely agree with @SJaneS49 that those kids are the exception not the rule and that the whole system is heavily weighted towards MC families but it is weird to assume that every child's experience of 11+ is the same, and that people who say their children do this stuff without much effort must be lying.

It's that rather snooty attitude towards 'effort' that annoys me. So if you have to make real effort (get a tutor, work really hard at school etc) you're somehow inferior and not worthy of a place at the top table.

Pretty much everyone uses a tutor to prep for the exams and we all know this. It's just that some people want to maintain the illusion of some master race like intellectual superiority.

It's good old British snobbery in action.

@Tommomum I'm not British, so nothing to do with snobbery, but there is such a thing as natural effortless academic ability. HOWEVER, in my experience (in academia as in pretty much anything) effort/hard work will always beat raw talent/but lazy in the long run. So absolutely no shame in putting in an effort!

I couldn't agree more re effort being much more valuable in the long run than innate ability but you seem to take very personally that idea that some children do find this stuff easier than others. There's just no getting away from that. And their parents telling the truth about that is not a personal slight against anyone else's effort, or indeed snobbery, it's just the truth. As illustrated by this thread there are huge variations even within families so are you saying that parents who acknowledge that are being snobbish towards their own children?

Of course I would be deeply suspicious of a parent standing outside their child's primary school talking about how easy their child finds exams. I can't think of anyone who would dream of doing that but perhaps you've encountered people who do and therefore you're particularly sensitive to it.

Tutoring is very very normal among MC parents in my part of the world, no-one pretends as far as I know, that their child isn't tutored. But some definitely find the 11+ process much harder than others and I can't see how recognising that is 'good old British snobbery'.

[quote XelaM]@Tommomum I'm not British, so nothing to do with snobbery, but there is such a thing as natural effortless academic ability. HOWEVER, in my experience (in academia as in pretty much anything) effort/hard work will always beat raw talent/but lazy in the long run. So absolutely no shame in putting in an effort![/quote]
100%

I just think it's absolutely nuts to suggest that everyone has the same raw materials but actually, as I said upthread, I don't think effortless academic ability at this stage necessarily means a lot in the long run.

Incidentally, I am one of the kids who would have had to work their arse off to pass the 11+ had I taken it because I just wasn't that way inclined at age 10 but I went on to do very well at A-level, university etc

@dithersome, “ I wouldn't even say they are necessarily the brightest in the broad sense of the word either, just the ones whose natural skill set fits well with the way we currently test ability, probably a lot to do with focus and the ability to work quickly etc”. So agree with that! All these VR/NVr tasks of counting where in alphabet the letter is and matching - I really don’t think it develops anyone’s intelligence and everyone can understand how to do it - it’s just patiently and quickly doing it without mistakes.

@frogusha exactly. And some kids genuinely enjoy that kind of activity, problem solving, doing repetitive exercises, improving scores, getting faster etc while others hate it and need their tutor or whoever to (metaphorically speaking) poke them sharply to do it. My experience is that primary school learning often comes easily to the same kind of kids because a lot of it is just effective regurgitation of information, spelling stuff correctly etc

It's a bit like when people on MN say 'my child passed the 11+ without any tutoring'.

Or some parents take a very narrow definition of tutoring. I don't consider that there is that much difference between parents paying for a professional tutor and parents working directly with their child: researching practice materials (perhaps by asking on mumsnet!), downloading past exams, marking and explaining mistakes. Either way, the child spends extra time and does extra work to learn. Which is most of what matters.

I guess I just want to know who these people in RL are who say these things?! I mean it's one thing to say, honestly, on an anonymous forum when asked 'how much tutoring does it take?' that your child did it without help or with just help from a parent or with 10 hours a week from a professional tutor (true story) but quite another to stand around outside the school gates and declare to the world that your child passed the 11+ without tutoring.

On a forum such as mumsnet where people are genuinely wanting to know, it's helpful surely to know that there is a huge spectrum of input required depending on your child's "ability". That way you can start to ascertain whether your child is the kind who will (a) do it comfortably with a little help at home (b) need a year or two of tutoring or (c) need 2+ years of tutoring and a miserable summer at the end of year 5 slogging away at it every day. Or somewhere in between any of the above. Once you've established that, you're in a position to know whether you want to put them and yourselves through whatever it will take to get them into the school you have set your sights on or whether a different option would be better.

Hire a tutor

Annoyingly to many of my classmates and parents' friends, I was one of these children - came from a humble background, went to a state school, never had a day of tutoring and topped my school year after year, played grade 7 piano and violin, represented my school in various sports, went on to an ivy league university in the US on full scholarship and eventually ended up with a fulfilling and financially rewarding career. Now that I am a mother of a baby girl in London, I am going through the prep school selection process and reflecting upon my own education and factors that allowed me to thrive in my formative years. I have to stress that I am by no means perfect - I am not as articulate as I want to be and lack (in my harsher than normal opinion to myself) the elegance and grace of someone who went through proper private school upbringing. So what do I want for my daughter? I was naturally drawn to SPGS given my own educational experience (the more challenging the better!) but at the same time I want to keep an open mind for my daughter. What would be good prep and senior schools with good balance of academic, artistic, sporting and social emphasis? Any suggestions are welcome.