11+ What are the schools looking for?

[ClaireSage]

Hi,

I probably will be asking some silly questions. We’re new to the whole 11+ process. It is really beginning to stress me out. Our DD is a little above average testing-wise. She’s outgoing, well-rounded, musical, loves drama, enjoys creative writing, does well academically, plays some sport, and is very funny. Maths isn’t her forte but she doesn’t do poorly necessarily.

Are the secondary schools really only looking at test scores? If she doesn’t do well on a test, will it be game over for her?

What does St Paul’s for Girls, Godolphin, GDST schools look for? What kind of scores do the girls need to have?

What about Channing, Queens College and Francis Holland?

I feel really lost. We’re applying to at least 7 schools. The headmaster literally told us St Paul’s won’t happen. But maybe it’s worth a try? She likes it because it’s more on the creative side than some of the other schools. I know, I’m crazy right?

This is way harder than I thought. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I agree also with glaciferous admittedly as another happy parent. I also think that the girls are kind and are a very broad range of characters. The pastoral care is good in my experience, but it is at the end of the day competitive at many levels especially at the top end, and If that generates self inflicted pressure that gets to a girl, it could be a problem. I don’t see this as a problem of SPGS though rather a manifestation of other issues I am afraid.

I also think that the girls are kind and are a very broad range of characters.

I would agree with this mostly. I would also say that who you are friends with (and whether those people really are your friends) might make a big difference to your experience of any school.

DD has seen some fairly unpleasant behaviour going on between some of the girls in her year. She chooses not to hang out with anyone she thinks is likely to be gratuitously unkind. I think this is probably a good rule for life and would encourage her to stick to it in future.

“ I don’t see this as a problem of SPGS though rather a manifestation of other issues I am afraid.“

This deserves a thread in itself. Lots of girls with MH issues at my oxbridge college. High achieving girls with ideas that they have to be perfect at everything. Maybe that’s better these days too...

OP I actually think Grade 5 piano in Year 5 for a summer born is very very good and is very musical. The trouble is that the people I know whose children got music scholarships often have a second or even third rarer instrument. Would your DD like to try bassoon, viola, oboe, French horn etc? That could really help with the chance of a music scholarship. I have a son in Year 5 who plays 3 instruments and took up a rarer one and got to Grade 5 standard in 4/5 terms due to experience on other instruments. My older DD is at a superselective with academic and music scholarship too. She was very similar on piano to your DD in Year 5, just played a second instrument too.

Fishywaters makes a very good point - my dd picked up a rarer instrument in January, starting from a base of G4 piano plus singing in a choir, and is now around G5/6 level. Lockdown did help with regular practice but it is certainly doable for a child with a decent musical grounding to really whizz through the early stages of a new instrument.

Though personally, I wouldn’t aim for music or sports scholarships, as I think they add too much extra pressure and commitments for not a lot of money off the fees. But that’s a different debate.

Unrelated really to the subject of the tread but I'm interested in the exam scores and what it takes to get to a certain school. Scores of 128+ and 130+ have been mentioned and how you can't improve 10% in a year. Is it possible to improve though in a couple of years or is it more like an IQ test? My daughter is in Y4 and probably gets 120 on average (last testing spring Y3 due to virus), highest on reasoning, closer to 130. Sorry for the question on this thread - I haven't seen threads on this before!

OP, based on my DSD's experience, Channing, Queens College and Francis Holland were easier, she got them all, as did 50-60% of her year at a non selective prep (almost everyone did who applied). Good luck to your daughter!

Sitting 7 schools sounds too much. Girls from DD's prep just sat 3 or 4.

DD is a music scholar at one of top London schools. She also played just one instrument at the audition but she took Grade 8 distinction before 11+ and it's an orchestral instrument. Also, she did lots of music activities such as JD and NCO .There was one Grade 5 scholar in DD's year but she played an rare orchestral instrument along with piano. Unfortunately piano is not a demanded instrument and often needs grade 8. I know one girl with piano grade 8 even not called for scholarship audition. However, a friend's DC at grade 4 piano (and guitar) won music scholarship at his senior school but it's not in London and much less selective school.

Grade 5 piano at age of 10 is really good but competitions at London top schools are fierce.

If the head is not enough supportive, probably you can talk with the director of music at your DD's prep.

@Frogusha

Unrelated really to the subject of the tread but I'm interested in the exam scores and what it takes to get to a certain school. Scores of 128+ and 130+ have been mentioned and how you can't improve 10% in a year. Is it possible to improve though in a couple of years or is it more like an IQ test? My daughter is in Y4 and probably gets 120 on average (last testing spring Y3 due to virus), highest on reasoning, closer to 130. Sorry for the question on this thread - I haven't seen threads on this before!

OP, based on my DSD's experience, Channing, Queens College and Francis Holland were easier, she got them all, as did 50-60% of her year at a non selective prep (almost everyone did who applied). Good luck to your daughter!

I think it depends what those quote are on ? are they CATS ? school assessments ?

montlieu The school calls them ANNUAL STANDARDISED RESULTS: "Standardised tests in English and Maths measure your child’s achievement compared to other children in all
schools in the same class or at the same age level. In the standardised tests for English and Maths the highest
score is 131+, for the Reasoning papers the highest score is 140+ apart from in Year 2 when the highest score
is 130+."

OP, you could actually apply for many schools this year without your daughter having to sit numerous exams as many have switched to ISEB testing including JAGs, Godolphin & Queen’s College (probably more but only know of these so far) SPGS and CLSG will assess through CEM although awaiting a confirmation email for these two.
The ISEB is only sat once and the results then shared with all the schools you have applied for, they can also be sat at your DD's prep provided the school has agreed to invigilate.

Wonderful! Thank you all.
@Frogusha very encouraging, thank you.
Yes @Brot64 many of the schools are going with the ISEB pretest.
Wondering what St Paul’s will wind-up doing?

This thread sadly sums up the pressures and general insanity of 11+ entrance in London.
Unfortunately the most selective schools will be expecting scores of around 130 and over.
Of course there are always some exceptions. But you have to remember that once they get in if they are not up to the pace of learning it will not be an enjoyable experience. Only you know whether ‘it’s worth a go’ or not. Do some past papers and see how you get on perhaps?
My DD’s prep school said she was well suited for SPGS. She loved it, but didn’t get in. Her friend did get in, even though the prep thought it was a long shot. In retrospect, I think my DD’s friend is much more suited to SPGS - clever but also very, very driven, even at 11. So whilst I agree to listen to you prep, the final decision should always be yours. To get into Godolphin, CLSG, Latymer Upper etc will also require almost as high CAT scores. But all the tests are different - some children will prefer the Consortium Multiple choice tests (which theoretically can’t be tutored for), others the more traditional written tests so that is another factor to consider.
As a side note, I’m also flabbergasted by the number of girls at my DD’s senior school who are above grade 7 at various instruments. I’m not going to judge anyone but I also know how hard you have to practice to get to that level as an 11 year old if you are not the 1% natural musical genius!

Music, Drama, Sportand ‘a little above average’ - Ibstock would be a much better bet -Paulinas really exceptional your Prep School HT will have a lot of experience on that. My DSIL children go to IPS and it is much better than it’s reputation -no longer ‘rich thick kids’ but all-rounders and great results, lots of extra curricular, and in Lockduwn the provision was exceptional-I was envious as my own school (provincial secondary teacher) was woeful and my DNS had a full education at IPS.

It's understandable you'd feel confused, the 11+ exam is hardly ever explained, even when it is being discussed. It sounds as though you are applying for September 2021, in which case you are doing all the right things by preparing now!
I thought this article on the 11+ exam may be of interest to you, as it breaks down aspects of the exam, and some of the best ways to prepare for it ahead of time.

@SineadBlue

It's understandable you'd feel confused, the 11+ exam is hardly ever explained, even when it is being discussed. It sounds as though you are applying for September 2021, in which case you are doing all the right things by preparing now! I thought this article on the 11+ exam may be of interest to you, as it breaks down aspects of the exam, and some of the best ways to prepare for it ahead of time.

Oops, it seems I forgot to add the link! bluetutors.co.uk/tuition-articles/2017/jan/bluetutors-articles/how-to-prepare-for-the-11 Good luck with all your preparations, your daughter sounds very bright and I am sure she will go far :)

claire I’m not sure where you are based, but if you are north London take a look at Maida Vale School? It’s new and as of yet not terribly competitive but I think it will become so quite quickly. It’s in the same group as Kew house which is known for being nurturing and creative. They base a lot of their assessment on a presentation and interview not just exams. My friends daughter started this year and is really enjoying it.

As others have said, the key is to have a range, one stretch, a couple of strong contenders and a back up. The London consortium is one way of spreading your options without overloading on exams. Good luck!

Hi ClaireSage, I just stumbled on your email. Your daughter sounds delightful. I would really recommend Harrodian - there's a great virtual tour online and it is an extremely happy, warm school with some inspiring teachers - they truly get to know your child and value them for who they are. Theyre are lots of opportunities for drama, art, music. SPGS-wise, have a look at their past papers and see what your daughter makes of them - DM me if you like.

@mummykanga

Aw, thanks! We didn’t go for St Paul’s in the end. Thanks for the recommendation!

whatever the private schools are saying publicly , they are not helping state school students who have suffered during lowdown re being offered places

@CousinLucy

Wow. Children can be grade 6-7 in an instrument before they hit secondary school?! How??

Practice.

Hope it is going well OP, any decisions yet?

I was going to say (although too late now I realise) look at St Helen's in Northwood if you are anywhere near the Metropolitan line. Fabulous school.

Hi. FWIW, and I’m conscious I’m coming to this after the event, my child was encouraged to do a thing called Atom tests. These are quite interesting as they increase in difficulty as the child continues to get correct answers, the idea being that all ch are therefore tested to the max. (I like this idea as it’s otherwise difficult for teachers to assess the wide range of ability which seems to be found even in the top London preps and test papers seem to be aimed at the fat middle.) My child is very relaxed (lazy????) but routinely scored the max on Atom - 142 - across the board. We were told that the top schools (SPB, SPGS, W) were looking for scores over 120 for entry. I’d recommend Atom as an objective way of realising where your child genuinely sits in the population. Do spend time learning what their standardised scores actually mean though.

I have a daughter at SPGS and know lots of children in different years. Their interview questions were all varied and not as impossible as written on this forum. They def weren’t scary and are more informal that G&L.

It frustrates me enormously when parents paint it to be a scary sounding school. It really isn’t. Yes they need to be able to keep up, but that’s the case with all of the top schools.

Please don’t be put off by the comments above.

My daughter isn’t big on sports or a high grade instrument wise. Each girl is different. For 11+ in a normal year they look for the top 10-15% in at least one of the following: English, maths, science, history and linguistics. That’s from Claire, who deals with all things admissions.

Please refrain from making the school sound like it’s horrible and unattainable.

Hi @Monsterandmonkey, that indeed sounds very possible. Could you tell if from your experience the higher fees are justified? At least £3K a year more than any other senior school we’re looking at. I know about highest % to Oxbridge, so must be more rigorous academics - is that it?