11+ What are the schools looking for?

[ClaireSage]

Hi,

I probably will be asking some silly questions. We’re new to the whole 11+ process. It is really beginning to stress me out. Our DD is a little above average testing-wise. She’s outgoing, well-rounded, musical, loves drama, enjoys creative writing, does well academically, plays some sport, and is very funny. Maths isn’t her forte but she doesn’t do poorly necessarily.

Are the secondary schools really only looking at test scores? If she doesn’t do well on a test, will it be game over for her?

What does St Paul’s for Girls, Godolphin, GDST schools look for? What kind of scores do the girls need to have?

What about Channing, Queens College and Francis Holland?

I feel really lost. We’re applying to at least 7 schools. The headmaster literally told us St Paul’s won’t happen. But maybe it’s worth a try? She likes it because it’s more on the creative side than some of the other schools. I know, I’m crazy right?

This is way harder than I thought. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

To a previous poster, these places are unrecognisable from what they used to be and I think it’s a great travesty. I went to one of the super selective girls school, soared and thrived, ending up at Oxbridge. But I would never send my children there for what they are today. I just took my child round our local comprehensive and it reminded me of what my (highly selective private school) used to be like. My DS doesn’t even know who Margaret Thatcher is - I’d struggle to critique her myself! clearly these schools are catering for those pupils who have been coached to perfection by their prep schools.

@Pumpkinnose my DD didn't know who MT was either, hence I specifically remember that question as she came out and the first thing she said was they asked her about it and she told them she didn't know and thought she'd failed the interview only based on that. She got in so it didn't affect her interview. And yes, the prep had given (and have again this time) us a list of schools and common/potential questions that may be asked. Most of which even I as an adult had to think twice on. They also had particular lessons where the focus was on interview preparation, so no doubt come coaching does happen.

Thank you all. This is very helpful.

My daughter’s piano teacher said she’s at grade 5. Not sure if this will cut it for St Paul’s. She enjoys piano which is the most important.

I actually really like Godolphin for their arts and nurturing side. We do like South Hampstead.

How is Channing, Francis Holland Regent’s and Queen’s College?

What kind of exam scores do all these schools look for? Do they really only base the girl’s admissions on test scores?
Our daughter got a 125 in English and a 118 on Maths. She is working hard to bring them up. Her downfall is that she rushes to get it done. She is only 10 though, a summer baby.

And I’m not overly impressed with my daughter’s current head. He’s not as helpful or encouraging as I thought. :/

Thanks again.

Test scores are important however they do look at the girls overall performance, potential (probably more than performance on that actual day), suitability for the school and of course the reference from the head at current school. In regards to piano again it depends whether you are going to go for scholarships. DD was on grade 7 but didn't get it. This is not to say yours wouldn't but I suspect there was much more competition and better candidates for piano than say cello which she got. Piano is also very popular. Again it's worth a try and it could have been that my DD just underperformed or that it wasn't her day. There are many factors as I am sure you already know that might affect a child's performance on that particular day and it is in itself stressful for kids so young.

I would work on getting the math to a higher score. At the very least to the 120's. Don't know much about Queen's College although I did do a virtual open day with them this year which was impressive (but it's a marketing game, all the ones I have done so far have been impressive). I have also found that all the single sex schools say the same thing, focus on stem subjects, there being no boys to compete with, very heavy on entrepreneurship etc.

Have heard good things about both Francis Holland schools, especially re: sports and languages. Not sure about academics but expected point score is not as high as SPGS.

The best thing to do would be to go in for an actual tour of the school (limited now with covid but some are still offering them in small numbers and you can book online, the wait is long but it's a possibility) and both your daughter and self can get a feel of the school. After all, aside from academics etc she has to be and feel happy in the environment so as to meet her full potential. Good luck.

They all great school. Personally I can not recommend SHHS enough.The music dept is amazing, overall as good if not better than SPGS. Academically in the same bracket for me as GL despite recent rise in rankings. I would place Highgate in the same bracket too of great schools with great outcomes for both more and less academic kids. Channing and FH have slightly less academic intake and QC slightly less still. But all of these schools are excellent.

I have a DD at SPGS who is in Y9. She came from a very ordinary state school and was not tutored much (we did about six months before the exam with breaks for holidays, only aimed at exam technique and nothing else). She is not a genius! She is a bright girl who is genuinely interested in learning and the kind of person who does not take to petty rules and regulations and prefers to make her own mind up. She's abysmal at sport, and has no interest in it at all. She has no instruments at grade 6-8 even now. She plays the violin and has decided not to take any more exams because she didn't enjoy them. She is probably around grade 5/6 now (prob about grade 4 when she started). She sings too but has never taken an exam and is only interested in musical theatre or pop rather than classical singing.

There are no sports scholarships at SPGS so not sure where that has come from. spgs.org/admissions/entry-at-11/scholarships/

As far as musical ability etc is concerned, unless you are going for a music scholarship, this isn't even mentioned or asked about unless your child happens to mention it herself if she gets to interview. Before that, it is entirely based on academic performance in the exams and absolutely nothing else.

DD has found it a considerably less pressured environment than her completely bog standard state (and not at all high achieving) school in SATs year. St Paul's is at pains to stop children doing too much and to emphasise that competition is about doing your own best, not trying to out-intellect anyone else. She has had outstanding pastoral support when she has been anxious, including a long series of counselling sessions via zoom when the pandemic kicked off which really helped her. She's also had personal support from several members of staff which was both kind and really effective.

Her interview most certainly did not include random questions about past prime ministers. She had a conversation about how she would persuade someone to change their mind about a particular issue (I can't remember what it was, but completely age appropriate and did not require prior knowledge). And she looked at and talked about a painting which she completely misread (but she found this funny - it was some kind of surrealist thing with a lot of meat in it which she at 11 decided was candy floss) and had a chat about what she liked and didn't like about her primary school and why. Nothing scary. She enjoyed the interview and was still talking extensively when they delivered her back to me.

Having said all that, I don't think a child who is just above average would enjoy the school that much! DD is not a genius but is very good at most things, bar humanities, and she has found the pace pretty fast at times. In her normal primary school with a normal range of abilities, she was basically top of the class for everything, all the time, without really trying that hard. I have sometimes had to remind her of this in the past few years. St Paul's is not the real world. You don't have to be a genius to enjoy it though. DD absolutely loves it and loves her lessons and loves the opportunities she has had and could not possibly be enjoying school more. The personal attention she has had is outstandingly good and she has wonderful friends and is having a really good time. This is all I really care about, actually.

I find the assertions that you have to be some kind of weird all-singing all-dancing genius a bit odd. DD isn't and is really enjoying her school. I find it hard to believe brot64 is talking about the same school we know and love. And not sure how her DD got a sports scholarship when there aren't any.

@Glaciferous not sure why the assumption has been made that I said the girls have to or are geniuses I never did however, I did say just above average wouldn't cut it. We were particularly going for Music , 3 instruments scholarships but ended up doing the two. I did mention if going for scholarships and our then prep very much encouraged it. If you read my other post you will also realise that I spoke of DSS who is at St Paul's School (then went on to discuss girls), which does offer sports scholarships which were for swimming and he also ended up with a music one for cello. Never said girls were not happy there, mine is but I personally think a girl just above average would struggle.

To be brutal, your daughters CAT scores would put her as average in my child’s prep. That’s not me being mean, but I’m wondering if perhaps you’re not being realistic about your daughters abilities. Sounds like maybe the school is also trying to tell you this - I could be way off the mark in which case I apologise but please don’t set her up to fail as the 11+ is a brutal process in London, Realistically your daughter will need to massively improve her CAT scores for anywhere like SPGS.
I have to say that 7 really is a lot of schools . Most people I know are picking 3/4 and we have gone for 3 - a back up, an achievable and an aspirational (ie on a good day it’s possible to get in). This was on the advice from our prep school. Also don’t just pick the ones with the best results. Think about whether your daughter would thrive in a big school with lots of competition or in a smaller more intimate school with high pastoral care and think about travel time every day - anything over an hour each way is a long day for an 11 year old!
For what it’s worth I have 2 friends with girls at SPGS and both were hitting 130+, 1 at LEH also hitting 130+ and 1 and godolphin also at 128+. All have achieved high grades on their instruments but none got scholarships . They are happy and thriving at these schools because it was the right school for them.
Sadly I have seen quite a few children pushed to get in to the ‘right’ school and then either move quietly to a different school a few years later when they are burnt out or bottom of the class or have huge self esteem issues when they feel like the ‘stupid’ one in their cohort .
It’s unlikely that your child will go up by 10 points in a year (if she is year 5 now) so be realistic and narrow down your choices to make your life easier (and hers)

Our daughter was at SPGS but we had to move her after a year, now in year 9 at LU. Our experience was very negative. We found that the school was very pushy, the girls very cliquey, very high unreasonable expectations, so maybe this is what Brot64 is referring to. I agree that those applying for music scholarships have very little chance if they are not playing to a very high standard. My daughter was unsuccessful at a music scholarship, grade 6 piano. Her mean score was 132 at entrance and her prep had recommended the school in addition to a few others, including LU which in hindsight we probably should have considered from the get go. She complained that she felt stupid, excluded most of the times and not good enough. She did not fit in and it was starting to affect her MH. It is best to take the advice from your Head when choosing a school.

She is now much happier and thriving at LU. I do not think SPGS is for every child, not even those that are academic with highscores. TBH, I do not think a 118 score in Math would get your daughter into the school either. I agree with the pp that it's unlikely to increase that score by 10+ points in the next few months. I don't even think a 118 would get you into some of the GDST schools, Putney High for example is very academic and up there with the likes of SPGS, GDST schools do vary academically.

Brot64, there is no reason to show off with your SS and DD's accomplishments though. SPGS and SPS are not the only good schools in London. Neither is playing numerous instruments the make all these days, many children play instruments to very high standards, it is nothing extraordinary, so get off your high horse. The OP is asking very fair questions.

Wow. Children can be grade 6-7 in an instrument before they hit secondary school?! How??

@Brot64 There are also other people on the thread. I am not only talking to you!

@CousinLucy there are lots of them. The music scholars at SPGS tend to be of a much higher standard. I guess, lots of practice and natural aptitude?

@Glaciferous of course, I only referred to you because I am one of those people who mentioned it being demanding/more challenging than some other schools. That's all.

@Jess1011 I don't believe I have shown off neither did I have any intention to offend the OP or any poster. Apologies if anyone took any offence. I also believe no matter what instrument/grade etc any child is playing or anything they are participating in is an accomplishment. We are talking about very young children dealing with so many things these days and still continuously trying to do their best whilst balancing it with being happy. I also do not have any negative experiences with SPGS nor have I implied so. Simply said it's a demanding and challenging school that may not be suitable for every child. As I said, there are very many other very good schools in London.

The cliquey thing. That’s what two of my adult female friends report too. They are clearly proud that they went there, but they haven’t sent their own daughters there...

Brot64, you might not see that you are showing off but I am telling you that you are. You sound like the typical SPGS parents that we had to deal with who think their girls are somehow more special or deserving because their children go to that school. You might not have negative experiences but SPGS is not a healthy environment for girls to succeed and I am surprised some are saying the pastoral care is good. But of course, you have a child there so for you it's perfect. It is not, far from it, I am speaking from first hand experience.

@glaciferous made a very good point about her DD who is happy St Paul’s Girls school- “top at primary in everything academic without having to try all that hard”. I don’t think it matters whether a child has been to Prep or state primary. That sums it up perfectly. You see superselective in practice means being able to memorise 30 brand new Latin words easily in one evening and learning 5 new irregular French verbs to write and decline and doing some complex maths quickly (and fitting in your music practice - if you play instruments) after doing a sports/drama club, that kind of child will love those types of school. It is the kind of child who learnt all their timetables in Year 1 over the weekend and never had to practise spellings. The lessons move fast and go into greater depth discussion quickly which suits a certain child. Again, at A level, the syllabus is covered quickly and you move on further to greater depth and reading around the subject, thus Oxbridge entry figures are high too. Re music scholarships it is much harder to get one playing standard instruments like violin and piano as there is so much competition but if you play the bassoon, oboe or viola happily grade 5/6 can be enough - but then your child needs to want to keep playing those instruments in the orchestras.

@Brot64 I didn't find your posts boastful at all, you were just showing what it takes to get in and what type of girls and atmosphere you've experienced, to help the OP decide what is best for her child. Also all of this is from your own family's experience and were honest to explain one of your DD's it would not be right for.

Found your chat with Tootletum fascinating. If only we had more of the German education system here I would be very happy. We do not need this stress and higher standards in maths would be brilliant.

With regards to OP and your DD, please don't do seven schools. That's a huge amount of schools to go for. It will be exhausting and supposing she only gets one offer? Or none. This does happen. You must be prepared for that possiblity. Things are extremely competitive these days. Way beyond even 4 or 5 years ago. Children who would have got into schools then, wouldn't get into the same ones now. The 11+ has become an arms race and it's really quite awful what we are putting them through but in the absence of anything else - what is a parent to do. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Does your DD play another instrument? Grade 5 piano alone won't be enough for scholarship. Most girls going for scholarship for piano will be at Grade 8. Even Grade 7 is not enough.

Please don't fall prey to the 11+ arms race and stay sane and steady and find a school that allows your DD to blossom. One aspirational, one reasonable and one that is a dead cert/a banker. Then a couple more if you must. At the moment you don't see it because you aren't driving your DD to exam after exam and you're also not opening the letters where you may or may not get a place or a rejection. It's a very stressful process that you won't know until it starts. If she's only just above average, please don't set her up to fail.

SPGS is not a healthy environment for girls to succeed and I am surprised some are saying the pastoral care is good

I think that was me! I guess my daughter must have been in the same year as yours as she is in Y9 now. She has found the pastoral care excellent and when she has struggled she has found a lot of support both from teachers and via the counselling service. She has always been a bit anxious and a bit of an overthinker and the support from school means this has improved massively. Honestly, she could not have asked for better support. I'm sorry your daughter did not find the same thing.

The cliquey thing. That’s what two of my adult female friends report too. They are clearly proud that they went there, but they haven’t sent their own daughters there...

I think this probably was true many years ago (also a former Paulina). I don't think it's true now. The school has changed massively in several ways over the last few decades.

@Glaciferous

I find it hard to believe any of your claims. It is an attempt to glorify SPGS as many of the parents with girls there try to do, Brot included. It still does not change the fact that the school is not a good environment for girls to succeed. My daughter left SPGS recently, not many years ago and nothing has changed.

It is also strange that you would take an already anxious girl into a school like SPGS.

@ClaireSage the one thing we all seem to agree on is that 7 is to many schools to try for. Don’t underestimate the pressure that the kids are under during the exams and the failure they can feel if they get rejected.
Please listen to your current school - if your head is saying SPGS is not feasible for you then it probably isn’t. I think half the process of the 11+ is parents learning to let go of where they think their child ought to go to school and acknowledging where they will actually do well and thrive. Going on her CATs she is average for prep school and I think you need to adjust your expectations of what’s achievable. Find the right school for your child and she will fly even if it’s not the one you imagined or assumed she would go to.

Just re-read your original post and if she is creative how about Harrodian or Kew house? If you have your heart set on a GDST then you might get surbiton especially if she is sporty as well but they have 900 girls sitting for approx 140 places and competition is fierce
If your daughter would thrive in a smaller school then St.James girls school in Hammersmith is worth a look. Also Emmanuel in Clapham/battersea is a good all round school that gets good results

I find it hard to believe any of your claims.

OK. Everything I have said is true.

My experience matches Glaciferous’s.

Jess1011 It's very sad for your poor daughter that it wasn't right for her and that she had a bad experience.

Sometimes things just don't go according to plan.

There will be other girls though that the school would be right for though so perhaps it's just different environments are right for different people and your DD needed a more supportive environment in the way she needed support specific for her needs and that wasn't available for her at this school.

Everyone is different, unique and we will all have places we thrive or only survive... what is good support to one person will not meet the needs of another.

I'm glad she found a better place for her.

Agree with above suggestions for OP that Surbiton and Emanuel 'easier' but plenty who didn't get into either of these schools last year and were disappointed.

@TagMeQuick thank you. I thought I'd make it clear after Jess's comment.

Entrance to schools in Germany is a walk in the park compared to here. I guess it's also simpler because we don't have non selective and selective schools all the entrance tests, scholarships (at least not when I was attending school and not when so young) etc. Interestingly the system works just fine. I can see from a PP that the 11+ stress may only be limited to London and I often wonder why.

@Jess1011 I understand that your DD and yourself had a negative experience at St Paul's. This does not make the school unsuitable for all girls. My DD is happy there. I am also not aware of who a typical St Paul's parent is. As we can clearly see from this thread, different parents and their children have different experiences, yourself included.

I was not trying to dismiss your experience. I was expressing our experience. In no way do I think girls at the school are more deserving either. Each child is different and different children thrive in different environments. As I said, I wouldn't consider taking my youngest to St Paul's because even if she did well at the entrance exams, it's not a place she would be happy in for various reasons.

I am happy that your DD has found a school that is suitable for her and is thriving there. Good luck.