Maths/FM&Physics V Maths/ Physics& Chemistry for Engineering

[Untangl3d]

Ds the scatty engineer type. Has had no doubt from day 1 that that is what he’ll be an engineer from a family of engineers(dad & grandfathers). Good at maths, chemistry and physics but a fly by the seat of your pants type kid who gets good grades without hours of swotting- so far!

Had decided on maths, physics and chemistry for Alevels but has high aspirations, also wants to emigrate eventually, maybe work, study abroad.This all coming out of the woodwork whilst on lockdown.

Alevels are harder and 3 good grades are crucial. He thinks doing maths,FM and physics wouldn’t be as interesting as Maths, Physics and Chemistry. He had picked the latter but we could have time to change.

There is the 4 Alevels option too but not sure he’s the right type of kid for that.

Really don’t know what to advise. Keep reading threads saying FM crucial. Help!

My DD graduated in Engineering last year.

She did maths, further maths and physics A levels. She said further maths was v useful in 1st year uni and the people without it struggled a bit.

She also had chemistry AS level but didn't enjoy it and didn't find chemistry useful at all - although that probably depends on the type of engineering you study.

Should add quite interested in robotics.

Whichever will give the higher grades
there are add on courses for everything at the Unis

Hard to tell. Which is easier to get a higher grade in FM or chemistry?

If he can actually get good grades in Chemistry and Physics it shouldn't actually be too much of a stretch for him to do FM as a 4th. Top unis for engineering will expect FM. It may be worth looking at the degree prospectus to see which level uni he Is likely to aspire to.

Further maths will definitely be more useful for Engineering if he's looking at a top university. It'll be useful at any uni but at a top uni most other students will have FM so it'll be more of an issue if he doesn't.

There is a big gap between A-level and GCSE though. Maths and particularly further maths at A-level unless he's really very bright will need him to work consistently i n a way he might not have had to at GCSE. He'll need to practise questions and make sure he understands topics as he goes along not rely on a little bit or no last minute revision as he might have managed at GCSE. If he might not work hard and isn't quite good enough to just wing it single maths will be the safer option. If he's willing to put the work in and has the ability to do really well FM will be the most useful in the end.

Ok that’s useful to know.

Just to be clear I think that two maths A-levels are much less work than two other A-levels and should require less revision time at the end. It's a subject that really needs a reaosnable level of consistent work over time. Where as a science A-level will naturally have much more memory based learning to do too so as long as he keeps up with the course the etra maths A-level shouldn't add on a huge amount of last minute stress. If he doesn't keep up the course it will definitely be more of a problem and less easily remedied by a last minute crash course if you see what I mean.

Yes I do. Would Maths, FM and physics potentially be less weighty then than maths, physics and chemistry?

Definitely dropping Chemistry would be much less work. The danger with that though is that if he finds FM too much he's left with only two subjects. I'd be tempted to start with 4 and see how he gets on. Of course though discuss it with his teachers as they'll probably have a good idea of how he's likely to cope.

My advice is 20 years old but I did maths/fm/physics/chemistry and there was significant overlap (exponential decay three times over). I saw it (at the time) as doing three and a bit, rather than four. I didn’t know anyone who didn’t do FM as a fourth (my school didn’t permit it).

My opinion is based on two current students at "Top 200" Unis.
3 A levels
3 really good grades
Either Maths Phys Chem
or Maths Phys Further Maths
will work for any course

almost no students now do 4
no university asks for 4
ignore the number of UCAS points on the websites as it is distorted by random stuff and not used for admission
personal statements for engineering degrees are pretty much irrelevant I like playing minecraft = 5 offers with the right grades

Definitely worth checking the prospectus of potential universities. I did 3 sciences and maths for my A levels and didn't struggle at all without further maths when studying my engineering degree at a top university - it was 15 years ago tho. It is also worth considering what kind of engineering he wants to do. I studied chemical engineering, so obviously chemistry A level was a necessity.

Finally, I strongly recommend going with what he wants to study (within reason) because a lot of bright kids who coast at GCSE suddenly find they need to do a lot of work at A level, and if he isn't that interested in the subject he just don't do the work required.

delurking, that is very similar to the students I currently teach. The majority who do 4 A levels are doing further maths as one of the four. Personally, I don't think we should allow students to only study maths/further maths/physics as it is way too specialised for a 16yo.

We tried that with the physics and chemistry teachers. Both very enthusiastic re him doing the subjects particularly physics.Emailed the maths department and was told many in set 2 do FM( he’s lower end of set 1 in a grammar probably more set 2, some due to just flying by the seat of his pants)so def doable for him iykwim. All departments are v separate though,head of 6th form doesn’t know him so nobody can advise re a choice of subjects collectively for him iykwim. 😩

Ocean your thoughts re the physics, maths and FM option kind of tie in with his not being as keen on other option ie too maths heavy. Part of me thinks he may have high aspirations but if he isn’t as keen on P,M and FM and not naturally a kid that burns the midnight oil to be the best he can at all times the top 3 unis may not be a good fit for him assuming he’d even get in with the above option anyway. It’s the working, emigrating, studying abroad thing that worries me though. Hope not doing FM doesn’t close lots of other doors.

I wouldn't worry to much about him coping at uni - kids grow up more in the two years of 6th form than they do in the first five years of secondary school (IMO). I've had hard working kids really struggle with the workload at A level and previously lazy kids completely change once they are studying for themselves.

Does his school offer the option of 4 A levels? If he is undecided he could start with all four and then pick one to drop after Christmas. I know not that many students take 4 these days, but in my current and former school (1 independent, 1 grammar) it is pretty normal to start with 4.

They do but expect them to drop it really quick before Christmas. They don’t encourage it. Could see him going round the houses re dropping iykwim and continuing when he shouldn’t.

From my experience the issue kids have at university isn't the workload - even at Cambridge where it's relatively high. It's the difficulty of the work (and here FM would help but mainly only in the first year - after that he'll have either caught up or he won't) but the necessity to work independently and be organised. If kids have been at a school where they're heavily spoon fed and nagged to work hard suddenly arriving at university and having to organise their own time over the day and week(s) and not having anyone nagging you if you fall behind is the real problem. Some kids who bristled with authority at school actually find they thrive in this environment - especially if they're doing a subject they love. Others who liked the structure and routine of school sometimes find it a little bit of a struggle to adapt. No one will notice if they stay out late every night and don't turn up to lectures and their deadline is a week away and is a difficult problem set not the textbook questions they're used to racing through at school - this is where the problems happen.

I disagree with the notion that almost noone does 4 A levels. Indeed most people doing FM do it as a 4th

Even then most do adapt but if parents are worried about their kids struggling at uni. it would be the independence and the self motivation that I would encourage them to work on (even if by working on it we let them make their own decisions and step back a bit).

@SeasonFinale yes almost all do it as a fourth A-level. I can't comment generally on whether universities actually care about the 4th A-level or not. I know when I did admissions we only really cared about interview scores and then passing STEP so FM would certainly help you perform well there and the other A-level would be irrelevant. That said I can't comment on universities who don't interview or set admissions tests or subjects other than my own so I'm hesitent to make any general remarks.

then passing STEP so FM would certainly help you perform well there and the other A-level would be irrelevant

How does that work for kids as schools which don't offer FM? Is it just accepted that they are at a disadvantage, or is special consideration made?

To answer - top unis take into account the school when looking at FM. So depends whether your DS is at a school where it’s an option they would expect him to take.

Definitely only do it as a fourth though.

Which unis do Step?

They don’t seem to be spoon feed at his school, you just get an email if work is late.😚 In a lot of ways they’re just expected to get on with things and sort things out themselves.He just does the minimum and has got away with it so far. High grades in those he’s interested in, can pull similar out when needed for those he’s not.He won’t be able to do that at uni or for A levels. Suspect Alevels will be a learning curve.It is a worry.

Half of me thinks I should just get up the uni league table, show him the requirements, explain the difference between 1 st and second tier( what little I know) and leave him to choose.

He’s 16 and although that seems incredibly young for such a life choice it’s the system we have. He has to do the Alevels not me. I’m hoping he matures over the next 2 years. That said both his grandfathers and dad were very similar at school ended up with engineering degrees and became very disciplined further down the line. One hopes he’ll follow suit.

So basically if he doesn’t do FM as offered at his school Oxbridge and Imperial applications are out assuming he’s that kind of material.Would have been useful if they’d mentioned this at school.