Maths/FM&Physics V Maths/ Physics& Chemistry for Engineering

[Untangl3d]

Ds the scatty engineer type. Has had no doubt from day 1 that that is what he’ll be an engineer from a family of engineers(dad & grandfathers). Good at maths, chemistry and physics but a fly by the seat of your pants type kid who gets good grades without hours of swotting- so far!

Had decided on maths, physics and chemistry for Alevels but has high aspirations, also wants to emigrate eventually, maybe work, study abroad.This all coming out of the woodwork whilst on lockdown.

Alevels are harder and 3 good grades are crucial. He thinks doing maths,FM and physics wouldn’t be as interesting as Maths, Physics and Chemistry. He had picked the latter but we could have time to change.

There is the 4 Alevels option too but not sure he’s the right type of kid for that.

Really don’t know what to advise. Keep reading threads saying FM crucial. Help!

Seriously even top selective schools don’t tell you this stuff. They just say do what you like which is right of course. But I had one DC have to switch a levels a month in as a call to an admissions department revealed they had to have chemistry - in that it wasn’t a requirement but no one successful didn’t have it. This was not for engineering btw.

Seems as if FM is only beneficial for those top 3 though as can risk top grades needed for the next layer of unis who don’t require it?

@Untangl3d I think saying they're completely out may be overstating it. He'll put himself at a disadvantage relative to other applicants who will have had alot more practise at maths and reasoning but he certainly could still apply and students do get in sometimes.

For Oxbridge you really should be at the top end of the top mark for the subjects you're taking in terms of ability just because the STEP papers and interview questions are really difficult. You'll need to be very familiar and fluent with the syllabus material and be able to apply it in novel and unfamiliar situations. STEP papers don't require FM content but they're just so much more in depth than A-levels so having spent twice as long doing maths will be an advantage.

And another doing FM as wants to do engineering despite their surprise/discouragement. And loving it.

*sorry I should say the relevant subjects you're taking so for Engineering that would be physics and maths (and FM if taking).

Workingkids with proactive parents or those savvy re FE have such an advantage. Our careers advice at his school was shit. Here is the website we use, type in your A levels to see what jobs you can get. That was pretty much it.

What other unis other than Oxbridge and Imperial require Step? Thus wasn’t even mentioned at his school.

Think Imperial would be out as FM offered at his school.

I'm a physics teacher. My first suggestion would be take all 4. The jump to A level is quite large and it would give him a feel for how he's coping and could then drop either chemistry or fm, depending how he's finding them. Even by Christmas, he'd have a much clearer idea of expected work load, which if he's a seat if his pants student, he may find it's a bit more than expected!

I loved GCSE chemistry but found I had to put in double the work into it at A level compared to my other subjects, so dropped it after AS.

If he really only wants to do 3, and he's keen on robotics not chemical engineering, then fm would be the logical choice.

STEP is essentially completely irrelevant for engineering. There are precisely 2 colleges out of the dozens at Cambridge University which require it.

Imperial want it though.

LOOK AT THE UNIVERSITY WEBSITES

no, most kids DO NOT do 4 A levels now (because the courses became linear 3 years ago)
current students know what they have taken

no, STEP is not part of engineering degrees
speaking to kids who went to both Cambridge and Imperial without it

and frankly there is life beyond Oxbridge, PARTICULARLY for engineering

Is that is as regards Step for engineering?

Sorry yes not STEP for engineering (STEP isn't required for Oxford either) but there will be an entrance test prior to interview which wil be way more in depth than A-level. Likewise interview questions will be much more probing than school level work.

Imperial want it though.

Are you sure? I thought that was just for maths/computing not the various engineering options?

Likewise interview questions will be much more probing than school level work.
Engineering, interview ......

and in the real world
the offers ping out based on the grades in as little as 12 hours

@ListeningQuietly of course there are many good Engineering degrees (Bristol for one) that rival Oxbridge but if a student does want to consider Oxbridge or Imperial or just wants to be more competitive for whatever univsierty they do apply for then these are factors worth considering.

My subject isn't Engineering but I certainly talked to friends teaching and doing admission in Engineering (and just had a general idea of how admissions works).

But the OP did not mention Oxford or Cambridge or Imperial.

The OP asked about general Engineering courses
and was sent up a blind alley with random talk about STEP and interviews

The vast majority of extremely good engineering courses want 3 good A levels and conduct no interviews

I studied one year of an engineering degree (top 10-20 University) before switching to a maths degree which was much more suited to me. A levels in physics maths and geography. I coped absolutely fine with the maths content in engineering in first year but many people had further maths behind them, and almost all on the maths course had it of course. Some engineers struggled with the maths content and they offered extra classes if necessary so they seemed prepared for a wider range of backgrounds.
As pp have mentioned there is a huge jump between gcse and a level maths which was the point that i had to start 'trying'. Agree with pp that the subjects that will get your DS the best grades are what i would choose. Check requirements for any universities he may be interested in, in case there is an expectation for FM. In my experience it is easier to work harder at something that interests you.

DD was interviewed at all 5 of her UCAS choices, for EEE except for Cambridge. The Cambridge interviews were tough, but the other four were more them trying to recruit her rather than deciding whether to give her an offer. (She had A* star predictions for physics, maths, fm plus an AS in CS and are relevant EPQ).

The Cambridge course is hard, intense work, FM really is required if the school offers it, most of them do have 4 A levels or some other stuff beyond 3. Its a bit light on practical work. It's almost certainly irrelevant for the OPs DS from what she's described.
*
Loads of other good options.

I think I've ballsed up the bolding on that...

Yeah, bolding fail.

Errol your dd Yes ds would like the practical side of engineering a lot. He enjoys physics papers but getting his hands on things would be enjoyed a lot.Think we can safely assume Oxbridge is out,😂 I’m assuming most will be like your dd. What a work ethic.

@ListeningQuietly OP asked " if he doesn’t do FM as offered at his school Oxbridge and Imperial applications are out assuming he’s that kind of material" .

Engineering although maths based is very practical. Cambridge is traditionally a more theoretical university and Oxford more experimental so if he wanted Oxbridge maybe Oxford might be better suited. The maths involved in Engineering is more practical and applied then he'll learn at school. I taught a few Engineering students (and the ones I've kept in touch with are doing very well) who got frustrated with learning say complex numbers as an abstract concept in maths at school but could get really into it when applied to circuit theory. Your son may find the same.

She gets it from DH.

Sheffield would be one to look at seriously for your DS, among the other options - excellent reputation for engineering, strong robotics (iirc), not too excessive requirements.
If he likes the practical side of engineering then he might enjoy an 'artefact' epq - the benefit of doing that rather than just doing hobby stuff at home was access to school kit (laser cutters, PCB etching) plus the discipline of 'project planning' and report writing . Opinions are mixed on their benefits, it's something to do as an end in itself if it appeals, not with the idea its a means to an end IYSWIM.

That’s useful Why. Does Oxford require Step and FM?