Maths/FM&Physics V Maths/ Physics& Chemistry for Engineering

[Untangl3d]

Ds the scatty engineer type. Has had no doubt from day 1 that that is what he’ll be an engineer from a family of engineers(dad & grandfathers). Good at maths, chemistry and physics but a fly by the seat of your pants type kid who gets good grades without hours of swotting- so far!

Had decided on maths, physics and chemistry for Alevels but has high aspirations, also wants to emigrate eventually, maybe work, study abroad.This all coming out of the woodwork whilst on lockdown.

Alevels are harder and 3 good grades are crucial. He thinks doing maths,FM and physics wouldn’t be as interesting as Maths, Physics and Chemistry. He had picked the latter but we could have time to change.

There is the 4 Alevels option too but not sure he’s the right type of kid for that.

Really don’t know what to advise. Keep reading threads saying FM crucial. Help!

There are far fewer universities offering general engineering than offer the separate disciplines. You might find on general engineering courses that DC simply won’t become working engineers. Many see it as a stepping stone to other careers. If he genuinely wants to be an Engineer, I would look at courses which teach the skills he wants but always look at the main engineering strands for the wider experience. Look at options the university offers within say, mechanical engineering, that suit. That said, make sure it’s accredited with the relevant institution. That’s vital. MEng also leads to faster Chartered status for most young people, assuming they get a job to support this.

That’s really helpful. Is Mechanical Engineering classed as a general degree?

That’s really helpful. Is Mechanical Engineering classed as a general degree?

No. It's one of the separate fields - the main ones are Mech, Electrical&Electronic, Civil, Aero, Chemical and then various even more specialised ones (though sometimes entered via one of the above) - materials, bio, environmental, 'info' ...I've probably missed a few.

General engineering degrees start with coverage of the first 3 or 4 of those, maybe some of the other aspects but usually not Chemical. Some of them allow sufficient specialisation (if the right combination of options are chosen) in years 3&4 to be fully accredited as eg an Electronics engineer.

DDs opinion (FWIW, but she did read the curricula, employment stats etc)was that Cambridge was the only general engineering course she was interested in (they only offer general and chemical). Anyone who reads many threads discussing unis might notice that a usual MN favourite, Durham, tends not to get recommended for engineering. (Whereas eg non 'RG' Bath will be)

'Accreditation' is vital for engineering. The types of unis we're discussing should be offering properly accredited courses - info is available on the IET website.

Note I mentioned years 3&4 - most students who want to be engineers will do the 4 year MEng ie an integrated masters degree, not a BEng.

IET spreadsheet - click the UK tab. Full CEng (chartered engineer) is what to check for.
It may also be handy for searching for robotics, year abroad or whatever.
The size of this spreadsheet, even if you just look at full CEng, makes it pretty clear that your DS won't have any issue getting a place, the only problem really is the huge choice. there are good engineering departments in quite a lot of Scottish unis as well as the English ones already mentioned.

https://www.theiet.org/media/5558/currently-accredited-programmes-weblist.xlsm

To be absolutely clear: Engineers can be Incorporated Engineers. This is the qualification below Chartered status and is the easiest to get with a BEng. It’s not correct to say engineers only study for MEng and Chartered status. Look at the institutions for clarification. If that was the case no BEng would exist. Often sandwich courses are BEng.

In addition you really can find excellent engineering courses in a myriad of universities. Some of the former polytechnics have excellent courses. Earnings potential can be as good from one of these courses as people from Cambridge. It’s also worth remembering that many engineers will have a customer interface and will need to do more than be an engineering boffin. Winning contracts, pricing, designing, (even bullshitting) and being productive at a profit are all necessary attributes for promotion.

My dd is in her 3rd year of a 4 year MEng in mechanical engineering. She had the same dilemma when choosing her A levels and ended up doing maths, physics and chemistry.

She really enjoyed the chemistry A level. It was the right choice for her. She got involved with a research project the chemistry teacher was running and it was a great experience for her.

In terms of uni admissions, none of the courses she applied to did interviews. It was as pp described, offers pinging out based on the grades, one received the next day after the application was submitted.

I suggested looking at the MEng with CEng accreditation mainly as a way to filter down the rather overwhelming number of options . It seemed to me like the OPs DS is most likely to want to go for the MEng and will have the right sort of grades/subjects to enable that. But of course, the other options exist too!

My yr13 DC did Maths , further maths and physics A levels and is holding offers for top 10 MEng courses. What he learnt :

Several Unis that offer mech, aero, auto tend to have a common first and second year, then specialise in years 3 and 4, and some allow you to swap your specialism. This flexibility can be useful, as your interests reveal themselves. Or your chosen career crosses over two specialisms. If you are set on a path, find one that offers the specialism from day 1.

Some BEng, but not all, have lower entry requirements than the MEng, but will allow you to progress into the MEng if you sustain high grades. So all is not lost if the standard A* A A requirement for MEng is not achievable.

Once open days restart go to several, to meet the staff, see the facilities, assess support given for year in Industry/year abroad. They are all quite different.

Does he really love maths?

My son does maths, FM and physics, hoping to go for an engineering degree after

He loves maths though, and says it is hard for those who don’t get excited by maths. He did not do further maths gcse by the way, but caught up ok

He only does 3 A levels as that gives him time for some additional extra curricular stuff, like an Extension in Engineering (they work in teams and do challenges set by universities etc.), this does not count for anything but has been fun, and I guess it is something to mention on PS

Anyway, so how much does your DS like maths, and is he predicted 8/9 (assume he is?)

I’d say let him do what he loves, just check it does not close too many doors.

We are not to hung up about the top 3 Unis as plenty of good Unis out there (here or abroad)

Actually I think doing extra things is really good. My DH would be the first to say he isn’t gods gift to maths. However he thinks like an engineer. He’s practical, works out solutions and gets engineering concepts. Whilst at school he did an architecture course and extension science at a university whilst in the 6th form. The budding engineers did competitions and won one. They also studied Engineering A level when it meant something. As well as ok A level results (not many got As nearly half a century ago) he had an excellent additional education in thinking like an engineer. Courses might be more mathematical now but good enough maths is usually good enough. Whatever the university wants.

There are not enough decent applicants to go round so getting offers shouldn’t be impossible. With the recession looming, who knows what will happen to jobs though!

My Dd didn’t know what she wanted to do when she chose Alevels - and chose Maths, Physics, Biology as they were subjects she loved. Once she decided to do mechanical engineering she did AS FM in year 13. Is AS FM an option for your DS? DD had offers from 5 Russell Grouo universities and has found the maths content fine this year. I’d advise your DS to do the subjects he enjoys at A Level as some of the curriculum is a bit dry and can be a real slog.

As some knowledgable previous posters have mentioned. Find a number of universities* with courses that interest and see what A-levels are required and which are preferred. Don’t limit choices too much if you can at this stage as he might change his mind, be shit at some subjects, or want to follow another path. I didn’t think I wanted to be an engineer so chose mostly unsuitable (but enjoyable) A-levels and I probably wouldn’t chose any different if I had my time again. With hindsight Maths, Physics and Chemistry would have been ideal as a Chem Eng’er. Encourage him to choose A-levels he thinks he will enjoy as well as excel at.

*This does not have to include Oxbridge (or even RG unis which people in the MN bubble seem to believe are the only option despite most people in the real world not having a clue what one is). I know and have worked with a lot of engineers from universities across the board and you really cannot tell which engineer went to which university. In fact a number of the best engineers I have worked with either did not study engineering at all or studied in later life at distance learning or at their nearest university for day release courses.

FWIW doing an engineering degree without maths is tough but I’m not the only person I know who has managed it. I just tend to come at problems from a different angle.

I would suspect there are few universities that don’t require maths now though. If you can find one it might be for a niche course and not accredited. For courses with mathematical content (and most disciplines do have that) it would be pretty hard to go in without it.

However there are many great courses and it’s definitely not necessary to just look at the top few universities. Engineering is about having multiple skills and finding solutions that are safe and workable and not prohibitively expensive. Also some employers really value certain courses and have well established links with those universities. Most employers will set tests before offering employment anyway. DH for example finds Portsmouth grads well educated in his discipline. Not a top drawer university but it doesn’t matter. Their grads DH sees are employable.

In my experience FM is usually an 'extra' and only done if you are really strong at Maths. I got an A for Maths A level and went on to do engineering at uni but wouldnt have considered myself strong enough to do Further Maths.
As said the science and Maths A levels is a big step up from GCSE so I wouldn't consider them if you dont get atleast an equivalent of A at GCSE if you want to go to a 'top' university.

However we should never lose sight of the fact that this country needs Engineers and the lower ranked universities are often very good and the BEng courses are fine. Students/employees can still do further study. Employees can still get Chartered. It just takes longer. They can also do well in their companies. It’s by no means awful to go to a former poly! They have an excellent track record in engineering and contact with industry and employers. However all potential students should do the best course they can get into. That goes for the lower grades at A level as well as the A* brigade.

Oxford and Cambridge are unlikely to be the 'best' universities for engineering. If you want a famous one go for Imperial. Otherwise Manchester, Newcastle, Birmingham, Bath, Bristol are all good.

Cambridge is very good for engineering.

Oxford does 'engineering science' which I assume is geared somewhat more than elsewhere towards people wanting to go into engineering R&D - creating and developing new technologies- rather than necessarily practicing engineers. I'm not sure whether that's correct but might make sense?

DS did maths, FM & physics and is studying engineering. The ones on his course who didn't struggle a bit with the maths side of it. Mind you, he struggles with the coding as he didn't do computer science! If they are bright enough they will pick it up, but I did understand that if the school offers FM they should probably take it. Definitely less work than the chemistry option.

I can't imagine any university allowing someone without maths to do engineering these days. It's usually maths, physics and another science quoted on the course requirements. DS says the first year is basically maths.

When posters say “Engineering” what discipline do they mean? Some might be more mathematical than others. My DH would says maths alone doesn’t make an engineer. A dose of common sense and problem solving acumen often goes a long way!

Some might be more mathematical than others.

Of course.

I can't imagine any university allowing someone without maths to do engineering these days

A couple of the unis DD looked at - one was Loughborough, can't remember the other - allowed for BTec with sufficiently high grades but required an A level in maths alongside it.

I think there are also courses which admit students without the normal required a levels onto a foundation year ... there are many routes to many different ends covered by 'engineering'.

A few I have looked at do want maths in addition to BTec so I agree that maths A level is pretty much a universal requirement.

The open day talks we attended strongly made the case for having maths, physics and either further maths if it is offered at your setting or another subject. 4 A levels are not required.

They may not choose people on courses without maths these days (which is a shame)but I’m not sure re it being impossible to do without.

My Dh was first in family to attend uni. He went to a red brick uni and did an engineering degree with a BTech in something and a B in maths O Level . First year was hard but he basically self taught from this humongous maths book we still have and inflicts on the poor dc as the holy grail of maths books. He is clearly very able naturally at maths like ds but he has incredibly good common sense and problem solving skills which I think made him successful more.

I think the maths A level and hard work should be enough when you consider the above. Do wonder if the courses which insisted on FM will lose some incredibly good problem solving candidates.

That said still going round the houses a bit with ds. Will be going through uni courses this weekend and will try to get him to think things through properly ie accept no FM means no top 3 applications.Don’t think he’s keen on the 4 and still prefers Chemistry to FM. Guessing if he does the 3 without FM he can do an extended project in the field which might be more his bag. Should be his decision but it’s really hard not to sway either way when they’re still quite young and inexperienced.