Maths/FM&Physics V Maths/ Physics& Chemistry for Engineering

[Untangl3d]

Ds the scatty engineer type. Has had no doubt from day 1 that that is what he’ll be an engineer from a family of engineers(dad & grandfathers). Good at maths, chemistry and physics but a fly by the seat of your pants type kid who gets good grades without hours of swotting- so far!

Had decided on maths, physics and chemistry for Alevels but has high aspirations, also wants to emigrate eventually, maybe work, study abroad.This all coming out of the woodwork whilst on lockdown.

Alevels are harder and 3 good grades are crucial. He thinks doing maths,FM and physics wouldn’t be as interesting as Maths, Physics and Chemistry. He had picked the latter but we could have time to change.

There is the 4 Alevels option too but not sure he’s the right type of kid for that.

Really don’t know what to advise. Keep reading threads saying FM crucial. Help!

I think it is difficult quandary. DD is currently doing 4 a levels, wants to do physics at uni, currently doing maths FM physics and a non science.
There is a lot of overlap between the maths and physics.
She is now considering quitting the non science, which personally I think is a shame as leaves a v narrow subject matter.

Both her school and the 6th form college v much encouraged FM , not just for those aiming for oxbridge or similar. Anyway she's going to discuss it with her tutor.

(I tutored students for their A-levels who went on to be Engineering students by the way I was never an Engineering tutor!)

Yy Sheffield looked like a good option to me too.

That’s useful Why. Does Oxford require Step and FM?

http://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/courses-listing/engineering-science

FM, no STEP as far as in can see. They have their own PAT (physics aptitude) admissions test as well. (Cambridge likewise has an engineering aptitude test, for anyone reading this hero might be interested... requires no special tutoring or knowledge beyond yr 12 maths/physics)

It really is all on the websites and quite easy to find.

Hero = here who.

We found the 6 th form at our 6th form quite weak. Big open evening, then you trail round the different subject areas with current students to talk too. All staff had qssss and you were encouraged to ask students questions. All they all really answered questions on was the course of their own subject. You could have a careers interview but the lady just directed you to a website and listed jobs from your degree choice. That said I’m guessing it’s not subject teachers job to career advise. Went to another school and they had lectures on each subject which was more helpful.

Ok will look, didn’t realise.

I think some of the universities are setting up 'virtual open days' - no idea what they'll be like (maybe just campus tours) but that might be a possible way for your DS to get a feel for various options? There might be more online info/videos on specific department websites this year.

https://www.ucas.com/undergraduate/what-and-where-study/open-days-and-events/virtual-tours

It's also worth bearing in mind that admissions tutors will generally be helpful if a prospective student has questions re subject choices etc. Before DD finalised her A levels she emailed a few - again, contact details easy enough to find on uni websites. Anyone bright enough to be an engineer can use google! As much as possible get your DS to do this sort of thing - engaging with these issues helps make it more 'real'.

You are so right Errol. He’s enjoying and being far more proactive re Alevel bridging work set now for lead up to year 12 than GCSEs with a hoard of subjects he wasn’t interested in.I think if I show him the uni table too it’ll make him see how real it all his and kick start him into being a bit more decisive. Just hope it’s not too late if he wanted to pick up FM too. That said I’m sure there is a bit of shuffling after GCSE results.

Kids whose interests and aptitudes are 'asymmetrical' (which includes quite a lot of STEM types) can sometimes 'take off' a bit at this stage when they're done with the stuff they're not into, and also the subject content starts to get more interesting at A level in STEM subjects, if they're your thing!

Son is second-year engineering at Cambridge. He says the ones who did further maths have a first-year maths course that is two lectures a week and the ones who didn't (presumably a significant number) have a course that is three lectures a week. He doesn't know anyone who's found it a problem, so it's definitely not crucial.

I imagine that universities with a smaller proportion of FM candidates simply give them a course that allows them to relax for a bit! (My husband did Physics at York and their first term maths course included nothing he didn't already know.)

He looked at the STEP papers but they realised it was rather more extra work than they could fit into the two weeks after their other exams! Only a couple of colleges ask for it for engineering (can't remember which ones, probably the usual suspects).

I'm not sure how much hands-on stuff they do, but I've seen a video of a robotics challenge and in September he went to Kenya to make improvements to a plastics recycling plant they'd set up in a village.

I'd be inclined to suggest he does the Chemistry. If his school is ok with doing 4 it's probably worth it. It's not actually necessary to spend every hour god sends on your A-level studies, whatever Mumsnet may tell you; and FM is probably a good fit for a seat of the pants type because you have to do the work to understand the next bit.

Has anyone asked the obvious question?
What grade is he predicted at GCSE? It's all well and good saying he should do xyz but it is impacted by what he enjoys and what he will get the best grades at. In terms of 'ease' rather enjoyment' ;

Grade 6 = ordinary Maths will be very hard (do Chemistry not FM)
Grade 7 = Maths probably be OK but FM will be very hard so (do Chemistry)
Grade 8 = Maths and FM viable (do FM)
Grade 9 = Maths and FM will be good (do FM and Chemistry)

He says the ones who did further maths have a first-year maths course that is two lectures a week and the ones who didn't (presumably a significant number) have a course that is three lectures a week.
Iirc from what DD said, even if you have FM you could choose 'slow' maths rather than 'fast maths'. It's worth bearing in mind with all engineering degrees that a significant chunk of the cohort (usually... may differ in the next few years) will be from overseas with different educational backgrounds - some will have done a degree level foundation course at home, some may have spent a year off doing national service so possibly a bit rusty etc, and so there's bound to be allowance for this variation in any sensible course.
(Christ's and Peterhouse re step. Easily avoided even for those set on Cambridge)

The lack of FM (if the school offers it) will affect the probability of a home student getting an offer at a few Unis.

If Oxbridge or Imperial is a strong possibility (of something DS might want not just somewhere he might get in) then he should probably do double maths. Imperial specifically state they prefer it and most students at Oxbridge will have it (unless their school doesn't offer it). Even students who take the slower maths course often have further maths but are just less confident (others come from abroad or have taken a gap year so want a refresher).

I think @bpisok 's GCSE grade brake down is pretty much bang on. I definitely wouldn't encourage DS to do a subject he isn't keen on though. If he doesn't really fancy further maths it may be he's better suited to a less academically intense university experience anyway. Engineering is a great degree and there are loads of great universities he can do it at and be incredibly employable afterwards.

Oxbridge is great if you want to enter a super competitive degree in finance, patent law or similar (and even then it will only help get you interviews for your first job - once you're in your degree is largely irrelevent) but because Engineering is such a widely employable degree he really shouldn't have to worry about employment as long as he goes to any good uni (and he sounds like he will). Pro tip is he should definitely learn a bit of programming too - it will be part of his degree course but if he just does some extra tinkering in his spare time he'll be even more employable.

Pro tip is he should definitely learn a bit of programming too - it will be part of his degree course but if he just does some extra tinkering in his spare time he'll be even more employable.

Quite a lot of internships (and afaik all engineering students will do some in their summer vacs) seem to involve some amount of coding of one sort or another. Python seems popular at the moment.

Sorry if it’s already been asked (thread is laid out oddly on my phone) but does your ds know which type of engineering he wants to do?

Chemistry only essential for Chemical Engineering I think.

Ds is doing Civil. As it’s less in demand than Mechanical it’s not as hard to get in. He had offers from all the RG unis he applied to last year but settled on Bath which is highly rated for that subject.

He did Maths, FM, Physics & Biology but with hindsight should have dropped the Biology. Only kept it on as it was his best subject at one stage but that didn’t translate into A Level results.

My son is at Cambridge doing engineering and had offers after interview from Imperial and Lancaster too. No interview from Durham but an offer. He did do FM as a fourth and he really wanted to drop an A level after interview but Cambridge don’t really count FM as an extra A level (as they think the workload isn’t sufficient with the overlap) so they gave him a 4 A level offer. It’s very common with them. If he does want to consider Cambridge then check the website but otherwise just about any uni is happy with FM as a third A level. It does help with engineering where the maths is extreme! He said his fourth A level was more work that the maths/FM/physics put together! Your son sounds as if he knows what he is doing, I do think engineers are born to do engineering 😊

Not really relevant to the OP but re Cambridge, offers on three A levels do exist - but if you apply on the basis of 4 then the offer is very likely to be on 4. If anyone starts 4 they need to make the decision on dropping one before uni applications.

I think it’s not sensible to just look at what is perceived to be a “top” university for an engineering course. There are so many types of engineering, it’s vital to have some idea of which one by considering his interests and skills and then looking at where that interest is best developed. That may not be doing general engineering anywhere. The specific areas of engineering are huge and gives a grad great flexibility when they start work.

I always say to have a look at the Engineering Council website. This is the regulatory body for all engineering professions. Then look in detail about what each one does. They all have informative web sites.

My DDs friend did M,FM, C and P for A levels and did a MEng Mechanical engineering with a year abroad. Now works as a consultant engineer. DH is Civils and Structures. Too long ago for anyone to care about his A levels but Sheffield is still a leading university for this discipline. There is now a lot of work for Environmental Engineers who often specialise after Civils. You really don’t need Imperial or Oxbridge to be successful. Chemistry is useful in case you want Chemical Engineering and is great to give breadth. Not sure Aerospace Engineering or Automotive is a good idea right now but if the country pushes ahead with big infrastructure projects, Civil and Structural engineers will be in demand.

Lots of Engineers from Oxbridge don’t stay in Engineering. They work in a whole variety of city type jobs. Quite often real engineers have gone elsewhere. Don’t overlook great universities that are not perched at the rather artificial top. The ones just underneath are not second rank. They are just slightly different.

Do go for MEng and go for a year abroad in a target country. If that requires learning another language, think about that too. If he’s designing abroad to foreign standards and requirements, that isn’t always easy. It requires flexibility but is perfectly doable.

I forgot to say that Geography is not a bad shout for Civils either.

OP I saw that he quite liked robotics. Have a look at the undergraduate pages of the university courses he might like as they are really useful. Some specify if some A levels are more useful. If he isn’t thinking of chemical engineering then he might find physics more useful but all depends on the course and uni. It is confusing but I found the university pages really helpful. There are a number of really great unis for engineering, DS wanted a general engineering course but he liked all the universities.

Thanks for that Bubbles. Did you mean a year working abroad or uni exchange? He is v interested in USA or Canada. Have family in both but none that would have an impact on Green card so he’d be in the same boat as everybody else. We can’t help with US uni fees so such a UK course could be a good option.Sheffield does a year abroad in a US uni but looking at their partner unis through my untrained eye from Google they’re not Ivy although some are in the US top engineering schools.Would a year abroad in such a uni help with US jobs and if it didn’t would he still find work ok in UK? US year wouldn’t detract?That course wants 3xAs including maths and a science( physics or Chem) which is interesting.

I meant university exchange. It’s never a bad thing to study abroad for the third year. For Engineering this is rarely an additional year. It’s the third year. DDs former boyfriend went to a Grand Ecole in France for Mechanical Engineering snd had to build on his French GCSE in order to go. Seriously hard work!

Engineering in the USA, Canada, Australia etc where English is the first language is a good idea for third year if he would like to work abroad.

It’s a bit early at the moment to look at employers and how that might pan out. However connections made and time spent at a US university won’t be wasted. I would consider Engineering ranking above Ivy League credentials to be honest. (DH was at Sheffield moons ago so biased but it’s a great Engineering university). Going where DS is happy and there are the right opportunities is paramount.

I didn’t read he liked robotics but you can do more research on the best modules available for this.

Sorry forgot to answer; if he does MEng there is every possibility he would get a great job here. I personally think getting a job in the USA might be more difficult because of their visa regulations. However going abroad for a year to a high calibre university is never a bad thing!

Great that’s really useful. Yes that was my thinking re visa regs. A year abroad could be a good compromise.

Going to get him to look through courses available so he can get a good idea of which course he’d prefer, if it’s still robotics, more general etc. Good use of all this free time.

Had some really good advice on here. Thank you all.