Scholarship or grammar?

[Mumto2two]

Our daughter has been offered a couple of scholarships, one of which is quite a generous percentage of the fees, at a good school..although would still be a substantial financial outlay. She also has the option of a good local grammar, so are deliberating whether to take up the offer or not. On the upside, we are thinking that this might offer her a wonderful life opportunity, that is worth far beyond the discount...on the downside; it’s not local, there is still the remaining x% we’d have to fund...and a very different way of life for perhaps us all.... Our HT seemed shocked we were even considering not accepting. Does anyone have any advice or previous experience with making a similar decision? Am already losing sleep over it

In theory yes, that’s what you’d expect Errol. But given the extent of tutoring and preparation that some children require to pass that entrance test, the ability range is bound to be broader than it should. One of my daughter’s class friends is in lower sets for both maths & English, has average CAT scores of about between 105 and 110...and has had tutoring since year 3. She scored 121 on the test, so theoretically..is now considered to be on par with all the others? My daughter, and other bright children in the top sets, have much higher CAT scores..and much higher 11+ scores, with less or no tutoring...so they cannot be comparable in terms of their underlying ability. No wonder the grammar school progress 8 scores are doing well...it does beg the question surely.

My experience with grammars around here Bubbles...is that the day of reckoning comes after GCSE results come in. I know two girls last year who had to find other schools, as they had too many grade Cs..and not enough Bs. Or they won’t allow them to study the subjects they want to at A level, as they didn’t get good grades in those subjects..which I agree with of course.
I think whatever way you look at it, the problem is that too many parents, seem too intent on choosing the school they ‘want’ for their child, rather than the school that is ‘right’ for their child...

If you're losing sleep just thinking about it, you will certainly lose sleep in later years if it becomes a financial struggle. Don't put yourself and your family through it!

I sympathise I really do but I think you're hugely overcomplicating this. Your DD has the offer of an outstanding education on the doorstep. For free. Take it. Use the spare money for great holidays. Most families would give their eye teeth for this dilemma. You can move her to a private school later if things go wrong. Not so vice versa. I am quite old now so tend to see things a bit more simply. Good luck.

SJaneS48 interesting, thanks for answering my question. Gaming the system yes its incredibly difficult not to get drawn into that if the state alternatives don’t have enough places or are an unsuitable fit for the child. Everyone else does it so if you have a bright child you don’t see why they should miss out on a place at grammar when less able DC stand to go there. I saw a kind of frenzied panicking happen round here and it was very alarming.

I know plenty of lovely bright DC who’ve done very well at grammar, they seem to be highly self-motivated with an unwavering idea of what they want to do after school, the ones I’ve seen fall apart manage the work but don’t have a special interest or goal and don’t find it while they’re there, despite being very able and working their nuts off. We realised that DS would likely come out with a good set of exam results but it wasn’t the place to help him find his niche or give him any time or room to consider a less academic future if that’s what he wanted. He’s very good at science and was heading along that straight road just because of test results. In all honesty what really put me off wasn’t the school itself but spending time with other parents who were discussing CAT scores and Oxbridge entry stats and continuous testing expectations while their DC were still 10 years old. Call me a chicken but I didn’t have the stamina for 7 years of that.

I do agree with pp who said you find ordinary girls at the Grammars. They will almost certainly cater for the Oxbridge/Imperial bound DDs as well as the art school bound ones and all sorts in between. I did notice a tendency for the girls grammar to not advise some DDs to aim high enough. Eg non RG when they could have gone to a top RG. Emphasis appeared to be on course content and getting in rather than challenge and prospects afterwards. My cleaner’s DD certainly suffered from this. The advice she was given was poor.

I have seen many DDs go through our local Grammars and they are varied in temperament and ability. They are not overly robust nor extremely shy or retiring. A couple of DDs in our village went private because the grammar was considered too big and I do have some sympathies with that but you not have to be overly robust to flourish. They preferred to be a big fish in a small pond. However the school they chose was the school of choice for those who didn’t get to the Grammars and we felt that wasn’t good enough for us as there was, at that time, a big gap between grammar and the private school results.

None of the over tutored ones I know had great GCSE exam results. However our Grammars are not super selective and they don’t appear to off roll either. We also had, in my village, parents who refused to accept DC didn’t get the pass mark at the 11 plus, despite years of tutoring. That led to further tutoring and applications at 12 and 13. As you can imagine all sorts of issues with this strategy and limited success in public exams. Parents simply cannot accept that their DC are above average but not up to grammar requirements. I’ve heard about bed wetting and all sorts of other behaviour traits emerging. My cleaner had a lot of jobs.

I didn’t coach either DDs with tutors. I worked through VR questions with DD1. DD2 didn’t take the 11 plus. At least they had “free from tutoring” childhoods which left time for all the other things they wanted to do. Which were many!

the problem is that too many parents, seem too intent on choosing the school they ‘want’ for their child, rather than the school that is ‘right’ for their child this with bells on.

Sometimes choosing a grammar school education isn’t ‘free’, the price to be paid might be they end up with qualifications that have no bearing on what they really wanted to do with their lives (like DH), or have MH problems when they’re older. a friend who works in social services has commented on the high proportion of former grammar school pupils who are service users. I’m not at all suggesting that’s true of all or even most DC in super selective schools, and I think grammar school is incredible for a certain type of child because that’s what they are for, but all the tutoring and pressure from parents skews it for DC who would be better suited elsewhere, where I live anyway.

ShoesSHOES. This overly competitive parenting really gets me too! I wanted to get away from them and luckily we did and could afford to.

Thank you Haha, I am very much over-thinking this, I totally agree. And I wish I could feel that simple sentiment of sense & sensibility...I really do! But in my heart, I just cannot feel that it’s the right place, and all the head over heart reasoning, both on here and from friends & family, can’t seem to change it. We have walked around the grammars we chose, many times now. On school days and open days and mornings in between...and every time I just feel so uninspired..so deflated about what I see. The supposed pinnacle of educational success...dilapidated & tired..and an almost air of anxious gloom. Ahh but think of the grades they get..that’s what matters...
Only to us it really isn’t. And we both know in our hearts, that if we end our days penniless, having spent it all on our kid’s education, we would not regret that decision.
We are taking our daughter back to see the schools she has been offered scholarships with, and both the grammars..again. And we have asked her to walk around them with an open mind..and an open heart, and to really get a sense of how she feels when she is there. Can she imagine herself being there for the next 5 years..or indeed 7. And would she rather a ten minute roll into school at 8.30am...or a 6am rise to catch an early bus. Highlight the negatives from her perspective, as much as we can, so she can really understand what each option will really entail. So we shall see...if she still really wants this, then that is what we’ll do. And we’re happy to live with the consequences. We both know, we would really have to be sure about that.

I rather suspect the issue with those unfortunate children was the parents rather than the schools - the parents would likely have pressurised them inappropriately anyway. (Doubtless with the best of intentions!)

No wonder the grammar school progress 8 scores are doing well
Wouldn't overtutored kids getting in tend to impair progress scores?

Anyway, it really does sound like you've got the 'problem' of 2 really good alternatives - so go with what is likely to make your DD and the family as a whole happier.

I do think you have very definitely made the decision already reading through your posts and i do agree, enough angst, own it and go with it. I do appreciate you want it to be DDs call but possibly at this point you’re just going round in circles? Tired old buildings or smarter (paid for by parents) ones do though have bugger all to do with whether your child is going to be happy or not and really I wouldn’t read anything into them personally!

they’re our DC, overthinking is in the job description 😂.

you’ve asked your head and your heart, what does your soul tell you? Its a really good idea to tour DD round again and give her your warts and all overview of them all. What each school’s daily routine is, clubs and societies, opportunities to pursue a talent and genuinely be supported by the school or interests that will have to be sidelined? sometimes the facilities are scruffy because they’re well loved by the DC, pristine can indicate austere ethos or style over content to attract a certain type of parent. Mine chose the 6am rise to an early bus, which means I’m up at 6 too so that was a bit of an own goal 😂.

A side comment on the early bus - DD faced that either way (having decided against the good local comp). This was one of the reasons that ultimately it was her choice - she had to really want it! And in the event, I'm inclined to think it was a good thing. A tardy, disorganised child got her act together, she got very sensible about bedtimes and the bus was pretty much a social club. Anecdote, obviously, but this was an unexpected positive rather than the negative we'd assumed.

An alternative point of view is you could leave the Grammar place for a child who doesn’t have the choice between an Independent or Grammar school.

Would she be boarding? DD wanted a scholarship, did all the groundwork herself as we weren't convinced. She ended up boarding in another county. The first month was horrendous, missing home, friends, not what she thought it would be etc. She had the option of coming home, but stuck at it.

At the end of Sixth Form she left she said it was the best thing she'd ever done in terms of achievement, independence, experience, lovely girls she'd met. I suspect it helped with her CV, an ordinary girl with a scholarship, and she got offers much earlier than some friends who'd applied to the same unis (a few of whom were predicted higher grades). She applied for uni herself (we never saw application). She had no qualms of going to uni, settled in immediately with no signs of home sickness - just as well as she's 6/7 hours away.

She kept in touch with many of her local friends - close ones, and those in the wider circles, and still is in touch with them even though she's at uni. She sees them when she's at home.

Either way, I think you have to let it be her decision.

SJane...totally agree, it’s not the buildings or the amazing facilities. Indeed, the two top wow schools in terms of that, we had already discounted for various reasons. I meant more in the general feel of the place...I just found it hard to get a sense of the positive energy I had anticipated. On one open evening, in a cold, drab, draughty old hall...listening to a ridiculously long head teacher’s speech, which talked about grades, and not much else. The music prowess of the two year 7 girls who had played instruments while we waited..talents which had clearly been honed in the years before, so had absolutely nothing to do with the school. And how well she knew..each and every girl in her school. She knew what made each and every one of them tick...quite a bold assertion for a school with 1400 girls. Parents were duly impressed. So while touring with our two guides, one who had been there for two years, and the other for 5..I asked them did they like the head teacher. Confused shrugs were exchanged...they didn’t know what they thought of her, as they had never met her.
Both seemed very unsure of their path, the 6th form girl was thinking of changing her subjects. And bar the odd guide, this has been all quite common. One girl wasn’t going for RG, as her school had told her to aim for the place she was likely to get. It all seemed quite confused and unambitious for a grammar school.

But of course, there are always exceptions.

@shoesSHOES the 6am start is an own goal I’m also contemplating with gritted teeth trepidation

@shoesSHOES totally! And women tend to over think even the most nonsensical stuff, we don’t exactly know how to go easy!

Also have a 6am riser and rise myself at 6. Quite honestly, if you don’t shine brightest in the early hours and have limited first thing morning patience, the faffing that goes on over ‘where did my homework get put?/uniform/school books/sports & drama & dance kits/why do I have this massive spot?/yes I really did NEED to borrow your Lancôme concealer & Chanel Foundation to cover it/can you please do my hair like Katnis Everdene?/I’m coughing a lot - do you think I might have the Coronavirus?’ type nonsense can be trying when you need to boot them out by 7.10!

You don’t mention OP if DD will need to travel back by bus? That, especially in winter time in the dark, can also bring its own worries!

6am mums should start a support thread! with lots of

We’ve barely touched on your scholarship offer too, yes the indies all want the fees but they don’t give them out like sweets and have their pick of candidates, if they’ve seen something special in your DD you’d expect from the start that they’re going to support her in whatever the scholarship is for in ways grammar school doesn’t dedicate time to.

eg. a friends talented DD at grammar plays in a county orchestra, its nothing to do with school and she gets comparatively little chance to play in school so its more of an outside interest. She isn’t being helped by school toward a career in music although its what she wants to do, her A level choices reflect that. DS school actively puts talented DC into these things, and events I wouldn’t even know about or have access or time to take him to. DC go off to a variety of things in school time throughout the year and school help with that, there’s no battle with attendance records when they aren’t in class because they’re at training camps or competing/auditioning/whatever. Thats not limited to scholarship DC either, if one is particularly good at a particular thing the school gets behind that and supports them. Thats what I mean when I said its part of the life of the school rather than bolt-on.

The enforced early starts were good for me!

We did really let DDs decide. We shortlisted and they looked round with us, at all options. However as they were boarding, it was their second home, and we were certainly not doing 6 am starts! I assume this is to the grammar school?

As for university entrance: I am not sure they read personal statements much unless they are going to interview. DD was a 6th form scholar. I do not think that made any difference. What made the idfference was that she was decent at her chosen subjects and got throught tests and the interview. If neither of these are needed, they are mostly looking at predicted grades.

I too felt a bit underwhlmed by the girls' grammar but thought the head and teachers we met were fine. So were pupils. They did know the Head. Size of school was an issue. However, I also was aware of parents who knew their DDs were permanently under the radar. Happy enough but not noted for anything. I felt both of ours needed a chance in a more personal environment and being the ever so slightly bigger fish!

I would say the schools we chose did help DDs with the talents they had. Others were more talented and nearly all musicians had music tuition in school as it was widely available. Some came very talented in the first place of course. The sports coaching was also a big plus for many parents.

The new Head was a disaster for a year. Never came into the boarding houses as the previous one had. So even in small private boarding school, no one knew her. When taling to parents she was lie a rabbit in the headlights! She improved in confidence but was not a great Head. This is, of course, a danger in any school. Staff changes. We lst a fantastic deputy head too. The replacement was anything but. You have to take the ups and downs. They happen at a good many schools. Even ones you pay for.

I also meant to say, it is very easy to tour a school and see the negatives because you want something else, deep down. I know we were a bit like this. I heard a couple of people in our village complain about our local Infant school and go elsewhere. That was utter madness. It really was a fantastic school. They just had their heart set on somewhere else and found fault with the more or less faultless!

All the grammars around here are Outstanding and will continue to be so.They also have amazing Progress 8. This is because the DC who make the least progress are SEN DC who are at the secondary modern schools. It is far more difficult for them to get high progress 8 scores. There are SEN DC at the grammars but they do not have all round delay causing learning difficulties which means accessing the curriculum is difficult. The hugely over-tutored ones are a fairly small minority. The majority of DC can make excellent progress at the grammars and do so. They are not super selective so do have a wider range of DC who are not all high flyers when they arrive.

We have been in State infant school then Prep and moved to a very reputable State Secondary so mix backround but have to say that our local very well performing Academy lacks atmosphere, personal development and engagement with parents. My able kid lost the will to live there. Moving out soon...

A lot if prejudice against grammars on this thread! I've only been to the London ones and they are lovely schools. All the kids from my daughter's prep school who went on to either Dame Alice or Latymer- absolutely love it and it's a lot less pressured than our prep school.

A family member is taking his GCSE's this year, and has opted to leave his scholarship-won place at his selective indie to do his A levels at a grammar. He went to a state primary, where most students go to the local secondaries, so he did well to have this choice. He made his choice at 11 and regrets it. He's always been very academic, and a top scorer. But he now feels the students at his current school aren't driven enough, so lessons aren't as good because the students aren't as engaged as they could be (a lot of them are rich af, so don't seem to feel they need to push themselves, he said). Diversity is not that great at his school either; mostly white students with a handful of BME student per year, but I wouldn't know how that could be helped.

My lesson from him is that, obviously, super selectives and grammars will more likely have more students who are driven to achieve top grades. But I wouldn't have fathomed that some students actually prefer this environment before talking to him. It sounds so stressful to me. So, I guess these decisions always ultimately come down to the child and what drives them. I think my family member chose the indie because he'd earned a scholarship that so many had fought for, and when you compare the grounds, an 11 year old is obviously going to choose the shiny, sparkling one.

when you compare the grounds, an 11 year old is obviously going to choose the shiny, sparkling one

Mine didn't! She definitely liked the idea of being among intelligent classmates who took learning reasonably seriously. Her university choice also took this into account - she would rather be in the middle of an excellent cohort than at the top of a wider spread.

It’s really interesting hearing different perspectives and experiences, reinforcing the ‘no one school suits all’ dictum.
My eldest child's experience with her gentle indie, was that there was a small minority of girls who were less motivated and engaged. Certainly not enough to have affected her motivation towards achieving well. We were pleased she stayed on for A level, having gained a place to move to grammar, and did far better at A level, than many of the girls who did move, or were already there. It simply suited her, and she was happy.
I agree Bubbles, it’s easy to find faults when you’re looking for them, I have told myself that on many occasions. But interestingly, the open evening I mentioned above, was such a disappointment, because we had such high expectations at the time. We were convinced it would be the right school. On our doorstep, had a good reputation, some friends from other schools would be joining her...it was really our first choice. So we both came away quite crestfallen and disappointed. We’ve just managed to discount the first scholarship school...beautiful facilities and grounds, but daughter is adamant, she does not see herself there, and never has. Even though it is much closer and days would be shorter...
She is still very much keen on the 2nd, and thankfully so are we. Looks like I might be signing up for that 6am gin club after all