Scholarship or grammar?

[Mumto2two]

Our daughter has been offered a couple of scholarships, one of which is quite a generous percentage of the fees, at a good school..although would still be a substantial financial outlay. She also has the option of a good local grammar, so are deliberating whether to take up the offer or not. On the upside, we are thinking that this might offer her a wonderful life opportunity, that is worth far beyond the discount...on the downside; it’s not local, there is still the remaining x% we’d have to fund...and a very different way of life for perhaps us all.... Our HT seemed shocked we were even considering not accepting. Does anyone have any advice or previous experience with making a similar decision? Am already losing sleep over it

[BubblesBuddy]

Also the Grammars around me have a tiny number of FSM DC. Tiny. You won’t meet many from poorer families. The vast majority are MC and some are very well off. The cultural mix is often better at indies. Especially boarding. The cultural mix is limited at my local grammar due to a number of factors. But some cultural groups are very under represented at the Grammars!

[ErrolTheDragon]

The cultural mix is often better at indies
Here it would be the other way round - with the lowest 'cultural mixing' at the many faith schools. There aren't many generalisations which apply everywhere!

In this case, it sounds as though the Indy might be the better fit for the OPs family.

[Mumto2two]

We have two close catchment grammar schools we had put down for 1st and 2nd choice..and are almost 100% likely to be allocated the first..nobody in catchment for either school, has not been offered a place..for the past few years at least. Nothing is ever definite of course, but it would be highly unlikely we would not be allocated a place.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this...I have also been considering the diversity aspects of this too, and having experienced both state & private with our children, have to say the latter has been a better experience in that regard. Our eldest attended state primary, and while there were many lovely children..there was also a large ‘less educationally interested’ contingent..Pjs and fags at the gate kind of thing...we’ve seen it all And for fear of sounding a bit like Katy Hopkins...there were some friendships that really made us nervous. Not that we ever discouraged or were anything but welcoming at the time..but it can be hard to navigate that process sometimes. Our daughter’s prep is wonderfully diverse...culturally, ethnically..and financially. As was our eldest daughter’s senior school, and as previous posters have also said, the grammars are often less diverse than you’d expect in some areas.
I’m less concerned about being the relatively poor relation in a presumably dominantly wealthy school, and more concerned with the logistics of friendships outside of school, weekend events etc. Having local friendships is always nice, however, with longer days, and the ability to hang out in their houses and do extra curricular activities together..and Saturday activities with the school, am hoping that won’t be too much of an issue?
As for independent schools allowing more flexible subject choice, I’m aware it happens, but looking at results tables by subject, and the numbers taking each subject..is reassuring.
We’ve looked at the scholarship terms, and it’s fairly innocuous...just requires them to work hard towards the purpose of the award, and usual right to withdraw in the event that they feel she is not doing that. No reclaiming of previous monies or anything drastic.
Our daughter is super keen to take it up, and we have spoken to her about the huge responsibility this would bring, in terms of her always doing her best...as she is not studious at all or a child who spends hours devouring books...just has an amazing ability to ace exams in any subject, without seemingly doing much at all As it currently stands, she’s all up for the challenge right now...but of course that could all well change

[SJaneS48]

Sorry to query the reality of this @Mumto2two, I'm finding it rather hard to believe the prep is 'wonderfully diverse' - I'm not talking about the percentage of BAME pupils but in its likely numbers of children from genuinely working class backgrounds. Your conjunction of '‘less educationally interested’ contingent..Pjs and fags at the gate kind of thing.' is rather a value judgement as well, particularly when you've added on that some friendships 'made you nervous'. Personally, the only friendships that made me nervous were not with kids who's mothers smoked fags or dressed a certain way, it was with children who were unpleasant or badly behaved. And they come from any class of background!

Like Bubbles, our Grammars are full of MC children but with some BAME pupils from largely first generational families who want to see their children suceed. We live in Kent so a Grammar county, I don't know of any child from our area who has gone to one of the Grammars who hasn't had some form of coaching, either paid for or supervised by a graduate level parent. On Mumsnet, I have seen a number of 'we just gave DS a couple of papers to look at a month before and he sailed through' posts but quite honestly, in 'real life' I don't know of any child who hasn't had a good time investment who has gotten through the 11+. Certainly no WC child with no practice hasn't. Which is why our Grammars are so full of MC children!

[Mumto2two]

I was just being honest SJane, I do know what you are saying..it does sound rather judgmental on my part, to say it made us nervous. But I did add that it didn’t change how we behaved towards those children. They may not have trodden the same path since, and I know one of them had a child at 16...and one girl’s family are well known for being in and out of prison..but we have always welcomed every child our daughter has ever befriended. That is who we are.
Our current prep really does have quite a good level diversity..certainly compared with some of the other preps we know. I guess everyone’s definition of diversity is different..but compared with some schools, it seems refreshingly so.

[W00t]

Not all areas are the same. In my area, the grammars are super-selective, but reserve 25% of places for PP pupils- who have a lower qualifying score- in order to encourage genuine diversity and access for those without means to pay for tutoring. They also have extensive Outreach programmes in schools within their catchments that traditionally do not send children to them, to try and encourage able children to take advantage of what they offer rather than think it's not for the likes of them.

[WhatAGreatDay]

I wouldn't send a child to private school if it would mean a "very different way of life" for the whole family. Why should other siblings have fewer opportunities/fun, especially if your DD has another very good option?

[JacquesHammer]

DD went from private prep to super-selective grammar and we turned down a full scholarship at an independent.

Absolutely her choice and it has been the right choice.

[SJaneS48]

@W00t that sounds a really good initiative! I think there’s a bit of an attitude around here of ‘what’s the point’ - certainly the illusion that the most able children are going to Grammars is pretty much illusionary! I’m not against coaching - if DH’s principles hadn’t been firmly and very rigorously set against the idea DD would have definitely gone down that route - I do feel that in counties like Kent though we’ve ended up with a two tier system which disadvantage children from WC backgrounds. Anyway, I’ll get off the soapbox!

[BubblesBuddy]

It would be virtually impossible here to get from 1% to 25% PP. Any grammar school will really struggle with this as most on FSM cannot afford to tutor. Where I was a governor, many PP children were SEN too. And I don’t mean dyslexia. The majority could never make it to a grammar school. The minority who could, should have been given access to a level playing field. However PP money could not be directed at tutoring! No matter how much the DC deserved it. So the 25% might be aspirational but around me it wouldn’t be realistic. Most primary schools don’t have that percentage of PP children anyway! Any county wide selection disadvantages the ones who don’t get selected to some extent. Some of our secondary moderns are excellent but only one is outstanding. All the Grammars truly are.

I didn’t give up anything to send DDs boarding. Had I been required to, in a measurable way, I would have stuck with the grammar.

There is also a word of warning about assuming all privately educated DC have parents like you OP. At my DDs former school, the parent body and the DDs radically changed from when we first went to the school. DD2’s year group had some pretty difficult DDs in it. Some of the parents were pretty difficult too.

I have friends who witnessed parents effing and jeffing in the car park when girls were a few minutes late. “You have effing made me effing late for effing Zumba - again”. I’m sick and effing tired of this!” Never mind the general bad manners that surfaced in other ways. Yes they smoked too. They were not pyjama mamas but they were objectionable in other ways. Some had largely objectionable DDs as well. They all wore the uniform and looked smart but that doesn’t stop them bullying, for example. Never, ever, think money buys lovely parents and DC.

[W00t]

@BubblesBuddy the context of the LA is that 38% in primary and 46% in secondary receive PPGrant. There are six grammars that have this policy, with a schools population of 200k children. The schools are hugely oversubscribed, people from all the surrounding boroughs are trying to get in, including children applying from 30, 40 miles away. Fewer than 3% of the LA get to go to a grammar. They easily fill those 25% of places.
Prior to that policy,

[Mumto2two]

I totally agree with you on that Bubbles, I’m not for a second suggesting that unsavoury parents don’t feature in both sectors, in fact a couple from my daughter’s old senior school sound remarkably similar! But of course this is looking at things..from a by and large perspective..
As for our way of life, and what might be curbed or changed...it’s not impossible for us to manage, but having hoped to see the end of school fees, after many years of that financial burden..we had started to contemplate a few more luxuries..and make some headway towards clearing our (currently manageable) mortgage. As it is..we are contemplating other means..such as meddling with the pension pots come 55..which thankfully isn’t too far off

[ReallyLilyReally]

Where does your daughter want to go?

[Mumto2two]

Thank you everyone, and thanks bubbles for your earlier post, somehow missed it before. I’m sure the skirts will be rolled no matter what...have seen enough skirt roll with my eldest to know it’s really not a battle worth picking. Unless the bum cheeks are on show in mid December of course..
Has been a lot of deliberating and discussing pros & cons. Daughter is very much sold, and we are starting to feel that it’s probably a price that’s worth paying.... thanks everyone for your comments.

[shoesSHOES]

we turned down a place at grammar and opted for a much broader education in a non-selective indy with a scholarship. Sport and the arts are a big part of daily life of the school rather than the more bolt-on vibe we got from the grammar which is firmly focused on academic results. The grammar open day was very slick but felt staged, indy was on an ordinary school day and the difference showed. The grammar gets excellent GCSE and A level results as they should with a selective cohort, but the pressure is intense and rumours abound of DC burning out at GCSE level at the grammar. The 6th form then takes DC with the best GCSE results from other local comps, so the school keeps its excellent results status compared to their neighbours. If I was a HT of a local comp I’d be pig sick. I read elsewhere that its a hamster wheel sprint and if you stumble no-one will pick you up which chimed a lot with this.
The indy is smaller, more supportive and prepared to tailor tutoring to the individual, DC are valued for their abilities whatever they may be not just academic excellence and helped to choose what they want from life, rather than what will show the best performance in a results table.

[MiniEggAddiction]

It depends so much on the schools in question. Where I live the privates (with one exception) are often the second choice for kids who don't get into grammar or who wouldn't cope with the pressure. So for an academic child a grammar would be a better bet. However that's not the case universally and also depends on your DD's other interests (is she musical/sporty?). A lot of the benefit of grammars for academic kids is being around other academic kids. They still suffer from larger class sizes and financial pressure so a really selective indie might be the best of all worlds if you can afford it.

[MiniEggAddiction]

I also would agree with PP that grammars can be brutal and might not suit a sensitive character or anyone who happens to encounter any issues while at school. They do tend to rely on their intake and know that by setting lots of homework/applying pressure they'll get results. They don't tend to have a lot of time or energy to help a student who is struggling.

[coelietterra]

From our (newish) experience it really is all about the resources. Partly of course that's about amazing facilities in sports and the arts, which does make a big difference. But fundamentally our sense at the independent is that it's full of outstanding teachers who are (crucially) given what they need to do their jobs properly (be that smaller classes, lighter timetables, whatever text books and tech they want to use, a sensible photocopying budget, support staff to do some of the non-teaching crap so they don't have to). Grammars simply don't have these resources, so they have to focus harder on results to make sure they stay at the top. DS's friends at grammar are already (in Y7) being spoken to frequently (and sometimes sternly) about grades, predictions, GCSE outcomes. Whereas for now at least, DS is allowed to just get on with enjoying his subjects (plus all the rest that the school has to offer) without any pressure. The independent still gets better results at the end of the day, but for us that's not what it's about.

[shoesSHOES]

precisely MiniEggAddiction, mine is academic but sensitive, we want him to do his best but I couldn’t give a stuff about his GCSE results if it damages his mental health.

Many of the grammar cohort seem to be tutored for over a year to get in, every weekend and holiday, and crammed even more just before the 11+. Some of DC friends were fed up before they’d even taken the test, but parents are competitive and determined (some were quite feverish) and DC want to please. There are also plenty of brighter DC locally who don’t even take the 11+, so the intake is further skewed. A local tutor advertises 100% pass rates he’s maintained for years but what you don’t see is the ongoing testing so he can weed out the DC who might not scrape through. Its fairly common apparently. Why do people do this to their DC? What is it all for?

[shoesSHOES]

agree completely with coelietterra

[Mumto2two]

Totally agree with all of this too, and although some think it’s not possible, our daughter has never had tutoring, yet passed both grammar tests with very high scores. That’s why this has been a bigger dilemma. We know she could do well at grammar..or pretty much anywhere..and everyone I know, seems incredulous when they realise we might be turning down grammar..as surely that’s where all the bright kids go. Well aside from the fact that I know and have known..many heavily tutored kids, who have struggled to make Cs on subjects..let alone B and beyond at grammar. Yet their parents were so hell bent on sending their kids to an ‘academic’ school, that they were turning their noses up at the not-so-selective local indie my eldest had attended. And are still turning their noses up..even though some girls including my daughter, did incredibly well there, and went onto Universities their GS friends didn’t make. This obsession with ‘academic’ schools, never ceases to amuse me.
On paper. the scholarship school we are considering, doesn’t boast the high % tally with the likes of Kendrick..but it takes a wider ability intake..so of course it won’t. And it offers a lot more besides. And I’m not worried about my daughter being surrounded by a broader mix of brains..as subjects are set anyway. Bizarrely at the grammar, there is no setting until year 9! Some of the tutored kids from lower sets, who have scraped through, would be taught alongside her in year 7. So yes, grammars are certainly not all filled with mini Einsteins.

[Mumto2two]

@coelietterra That was very much my eldest’s experience at her small indie school. She was so relaxed and happy, and had the time to actually enjoy her subjects, without fretting about grades or enduring mountains of homework. It was all, very much a gentle incline. And she loved her school experience all the more for it. She’s hugely grateful that we sent her there.

[BubblesBuddy]

I know that very tutored DC can struggle at any academic school. We certainly know DC who have got to local Grammars and come out with results lower than many in the secondary moderns. They have also had tutoring all the way through to “keep up”. This seems to work until public exams.

Bright children thrive in Grammars and good independents. I have, though, come across very average teachers in independent schools that have been quietly moved on. I won’t repeat the worst offences but there were one or two shockers! Don’t expect roses all the way and not all Grammars are super pushy either or some DC I know would have been off rolled! They weren’t.

[SJaneS48]

@shoesSHOES, parents do the pre 11+ cramming around here purely because good Secondaries are heavily over subscribed & scarcer than the national average! While they may be better off professional couples by and large, they may not have either the funds to send multiple DC private or they may not wish too. Which then involves chancing getting into one of the few better Secondaries in Kent or going full steam on the grammar option. We went for a musical place at an out of area high performing secondary given DH’s views on the Grammar selection process - but I’m quite sure DD wouldn’t have achieved this without many years of expensive instrument and singing lessons! Places at better schools down here are often paid for, one way or the other, a lot of hypocrisy goes on and gaming the system which I will hold my hand up to also doing!

There seems to be a bit of a narrative developing here that to succeed in a Grammar you have to be a robust, strong and not very sensitive character. I’d agree the Super Selective’s are pushier than the Selective’s but knowing quite a few girls at Grammars, they really don’t fit this stereotype at all! Of the 5 I know at a Super Selective, all are exceptionally bright, nerdy in their own ways and rather self contained. Not the gang mentality, herds of friends types. Bar one (over coached & super arty, failing in Maths and Science) all are happy & coping with the pressure at their schools according to their DPs. DDs two Primary Best Friends have just started at a Selective, both like DD are nerdy, friendly, weren’t in the popular crew at Primary and are genuinely nice children. Both so far are very happy. So from my experience, you absolutely do not need to be ‘hard’ to get along in a Grammar, the girls I know are distinctly the opposite!

[ErrolTheDragon]

Bizarrely at the grammar, there is no setting until year 9!

DDs didn't set at all, except for maths from yr 9 - it was fine. Because of the entrance test they were already 'set' to about the same extent as other schools.