Scholarship or grammar?

[Mumto2two]

Our daughter has been offered a couple of scholarships, one of which is quite a generous percentage of the fees, at a good school..although would still be a substantial financial outlay. She also has the option of a good local grammar, so are deliberating whether to take up the offer or not. On the upside, we are thinking that this might offer her a wonderful life opportunity, that is worth far beyond the discount...on the downside; it’s not local, there is still the remaining x% we’d have to fund...and a very different way of life for perhaps us all.... Our HT seemed shocked we were even considering not accepting. Does anyone have any advice or previous experience with making a similar decision? Am already losing sleep over it

[Losingtheplot01]

Hello again.

It’s such a stressful time so very pleased to hear you’re feeling positive.

It was such a nerve wracking time for me as like all parents, I wanted to get it right and I still feel a bit frazzled by the experience. I remember being certain and the getting the grammar place offer and it was all up in the air again.

For what it’s worth, I never felt I got it right, decision wise, for a long while. DD was though so that was important and it was only about a week after dd started year 7, I knew we had.

Wishing you all the very best and hope your dd is very happy at senior school. xx

[Mumto2two]

@Losingtheplot01 Thank you so much for your lovely post, your description of your daughter and her situation, is so incredibly similar, I could have written that myself. And could well be come this time next year!
Thankfully, we have absolute certainty here this weekend, financial constraints aside, we have no doubt in our hearts this is the right decision. Feeling very positive...thank you xx

[Losingtheplot01]

Hello Mumto2too
We were in the position last year. A scholarship
Offer at a less academic school be a place at a super selective school and my DD chose the scholarship School.

We had a few things to consider including finances and although it hasn’t been easy we def feel it was the right choice for her. She is able and bright and works hard at school but like your daughter is also a bit away with the fairies at home.
She also can have days where she gets close to 100% in tests and other days where she mixes up plus for a Minus it divide so can totally get much lowerS
The super selective although fab for results felt like she wouldn’t be able to have any down time. She enjoys school but doesn’t enjoy the pressure and we felt she would get a more rounded education at the scholarship school.
Also, being nearer the top is definitely better for her self esteem. She has a health issue which makes her feel not so good about herself so needs as much positive self esteem as she can get.
She may have been near the top at the SS grammar but because of the potential for her to always have to keep up and work at a fast pace, consistently it felt like there wasn’t any room for her to have an off day, or if she would feel comfortable asking for help if she didn’t understand something. She doesn’t like drawing attention to herself so putting her hand up in a class of kids who get what is being taught would be hard for her.
We also got the ‘are you mad?’ Comments/looks because on paper the scholarship school is less academic in terms of results however it is still the best school for my dd.
Having the scholarship has boosted her confidence and so far, a term and a half in, she is happy and settled and has slotted into senior school life very easily. It’s early days but she is happy and we are too, knowing that she is.
I believe that if she is happy she will do as well as she can.
The money side is tight but due to the health issue we tend to not eat out too much or travel abroad so the money we might spend on those sorts of things goes on fees.
I was very conflicted for a king while before we chose but deep down, instinctively I knew what the right choice was. So did my DD.

So I would say follow your gut and I don’t think you can go too wrong.

Wishing you and your DD lots of luck. She sounds super so am sure she’ll do well.

Xx

[Didsomeonesay]

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[BubblesBuddy]

I don’t really think complacent rich kids are in grammar or independent schools these days. Some richer parents don’t have the brightest DC, but that’s another matter. I find DC who don’t work at school come from all backgrounds too. Certainly plenty who are not rich in any shape or form switch off from education.

[Mumto2two]

Complacency en masse would be a totally different ball game..I do agree...which is what our alternative non grammar option would have been back then. The gentle indie option might not have been rammed with super motivated high flyers, but it certainly wasn’t filled with complacent rich kids either, they were in our experience, quite few and far between.

[JayDot500]

Re the tutoring thing, I've also seen how a student tutored to get into a school will pass and get in, and then have their self-esteem crushed as they can't catch up with the flow of work and assessments. This girl would come home with the worst reports concerning her grades, but now she's flourishing socially and will do fine career wise, I'm sure.

This all only really matters to me now because we've moved and ended up in a grammar, indie, secondary area. I'd never have thought all of this would concern me: I went to an inner London comprehensive that was a bit meh. Just assumed my kid would do the same, but nooooo! Even the teachers I know dissuade me from just choosing the secondaries without trying to feel out the alternatives.

Maybe we'll just move

[JayDot500]

Not even our eldest determined her 6th form ‘fit’ based on academic comparisons...

A competitive environment will fit certain children, that's the lesson I've learned. It doesn't mean they are heartless workaholics who don't try to relate. I think we all can appreciate that surrounding ourselves with focused, driven people can help drive forward our own motivations. Being surrounded by complacency can be a nightmare for someone who doesn't have that luxury (because they aren't rich), nor inclination (because they want to feel challenged by whatever).

Students who work hard and get a C isn't what this gist is about.

[ErrolTheDragon]

I meant they may suit some children. Parents who push their kids into schools which don't match their genuine aptitudes and character do them a disservice. That applies to the over-tutorers but also I suppose to the 'not for the likes of us' and doubtless other parental outlooks.

[Mumto2two]

And that’s just it Errol..some do! I know parents who have blatantly turned their noses up at the prospect of their then 11 year olds..sharing roof space with the lesser able, somehow oblivious to the 3 years tutoring to home their little Einsteins for the ‘academic’ schools they felt they needed to be. Only to find themselves begging at the door come GCSE results day. Sad, but all too commonly true!

[ErrolTheDragon]

happily shared desk space with predicted C grades and A grades alike, because they all had many other things in common

As did mine ... and Ds ... no setting within a non-superselective GS probably is perhaps not quite the elitist hothouse you might be thinking of. Well, I suppose even those may suit some.

[Mumto2two]

Absolutely same here Bubbles. Not even our eldest determined her 6th form ‘fit’ based on academic comparisons...and happily shared desk space with predicted C grades and A grades alike, because they all had many other things in common. I really wouldn’t want my child to be in a school that felt this was the most important thing to have in common... which is probably why our youngest is leaning towards the school she is. She likes the girls she has met, feels she will have so much in common and she would have fun there. When we point out the negatives of long days and long bus rides...she feels confident it will be ok. Choosing a school to this 10 year old, is very much ALL about who her friends will be, and how much fun they might have...it’s certainly not about how they are going to compare at physics.

[ErrolTheDragon]

Well of course all the other factors are important too (and intelligence and 'attitude to learning' certainly weren't criteria for friends outside of school).

I think I've somehow implied something different from what I meant.never mind.

[BubblesBuddy]

Mine would not have even thought “among” at that age. They were not so judgemental - and it is unnecessarily judgemental. They just liked friendly DC and ones they got on with. My Dd didn’t choose to be among similar DDs based on learning capacity at 10 years old. It’s so elite to think that and it’s not a world away from “only”. This is because the pool is deliberately chosen to be full of DDs like her. My DDs were far more concerned about food, boarding houses, having a laugh, making friends, and new opportunities. Not being among DDs of a similar academic standard.

[ErrolTheDragon]

How do they even get to think they need to be with bright DC only?

Did anyone on here imply that? 'Among' is a world away from 'only'!

[SJaneS48]

Later not latter - long day!

[SJaneS48]

At 11 (and having an 11 year old) i would say it’s really all about being with people you’re going to have something in common with and having the opportunity to do things you like. Well, in my experience anyway!

Excellent @Mumto2two! Find a room you can go mutter to yourself in and bring a big jug of coffee, iboprofen, a fixed (slightly scary) grin, gritted teeth and spare ten pound notes for the bus for lost bus passes (that inevitably they find latter on when they’re actually on the bus). Brushed teeth and hair entirely optional!

[BubblesBuddy]

Ha! I couldn’t do 6 am starts for school!

We really didn’t look at individual children at any school and think DD must only work with bright ones! Many schools have DC that are not particularly academic but I would like to think my DD at 11 wouldn’t have shunned the less bright ones. That’s just a bit too selective for an 11 year old. How do they even get to think they need to be with bright DC only? From the parents?

Also intelligence isn’t everything. Lively girls can have all sorts of hobbies are attributes. That’s what can be good about some schools. There is breath and no 11 year old should be prejudiced about perceived less intelligent DC. Further down the line even they can be big earners!

[Mumto2two]

It’s really interesting hearing different perspectives and experiences, reinforcing the ‘no one school suits all’ dictum.
My eldest child's experience with her gentle indie, was that there was a small minority of girls who were less motivated and engaged. Certainly not enough to have affected her motivation towards achieving well. We were pleased she stayed on for A level, having gained a place to move to grammar, and did far better at A level, than many of the girls who did move, or were already there. It simply suited her, and she was happy.
I agree Bubbles, it’s easy to find faults when you’re looking for them, I have told myself that on many occasions. But interestingly, the open evening I mentioned above, was such a disappointment, because we had such high expectations at the time. We were convinced it would be the right school. On our doorstep, had a good reputation, some friends from other schools would be joining her...it was really our first choice. So we both came away quite crestfallen and disappointed. We’ve just managed to discount the first scholarship school...beautiful facilities and grounds, but daughter is adamant, she does not see herself there, and never has. Even though it is much closer and days would be shorter...
She is still very much keen on the 2nd, and thankfully so are we. Looks like I might be signing up for that 6am gin club after all

[ErrolTheDragon]

when you compare the grounds, an 11 year old is obviously going to choose the shiny, sparkling one

Mine didn't! She definitely liked the idea of being among intelligent classmates who took learning reasonably seriously. Her university choice also took this into account - she would rather be in the middle of an excellent cohort than at the top of a wider spread.

[JayDot500]

A family member is taking his GCSE's this year, and has opted to leave his scholarship-won place at his selective indie to do his A levels at a grammar. He went to a state primary, where most students go to the local secondaries, so he did well to have this choice. He made his choice at 11 and regrets it. He's always been very academic, and a top scorer. But he now feels the students at his current school aren't driven enough, so lessons aren't as good because the students aren't as engaged as they could be (a lot of them are rich af, so don't seem to feel they need to push themselves, he said). Diversity is not that great at his school either; mostly white students with a handful of BME student per year, but I wouldn't know how that could be helped.

My lesson from him is that, obviously, super selectives and grammars will more likely have more students who are driven to achieve top grades. But I wouldn't have fathomed that some students actually prefer this environment before talking to him. It sounds so stressful to me. So, I guess these decisions always ultimately come down to the child and what drives them. I think my family member chose the indie because he'd earned a scholarship that so many had fought for, and when you compare the grounds, an 11 year old is obviously going to choose the shiny, sparkling one.

[XelaM]

A lot if prejudice against grammars on this thread! I've only been to the London ones and they are lovely schools. All the kids from my daughter's prep school who went on to either Dame Alice or Latymer- absolutely love it and it's a lot less pressured than our prep school.

[edy35]

We have been in State infant school then Prep and moved to a very reputable State Secondary so mix backround but have to say that our local very well performing Academy lacks atmosphere, personal development and engagement with parents. My able kid lost the will to live there. Moving out soon...

[BubblesBuddy]

I also meant to say, it is very easy to tour a school and see the negatives because you want something else, deep down. I know we were a bit like this. I heard a couple of people in our village complain about our local Infant school and go elsewhere. That was utter madness. It really was a fantastic school. They just had their heart set on somewhere else and found fault with the more or less faultless!

All the grammars around here are Outstanding and will continue to be so.They also have amazing Progress 8. This is because the DC who make the least progress are SEN DC who are at the secondary modern schools. It is far more difficult for them to get high progress 8 scores. There are SEN DC at the grammars but they do not have all round delay causing learning difficulties which means accessing the curriculum is difficult. The hugely over-tutored ones are a fairly small minority. The majority of DC can make excellent progress at the grammars and do so. They are not super selective so do have a wider range of DC who are not all high flyers when they arrive.

[BubblesBuddy]

We did really let DDs decide. We shortlisted and they looked round with us, at all options. However as they were boarding, it was their second home, and we were certainly not doing 6 am starts! I assume this is to the grammar school?

As for university entrance: I am not sure they read personal statements much unless they are going to interview. DD was a 6th form scholar. I do not think that made any difference. What made the idfference was that she was decent at her chosen subjects and got throught tests and the interview. If neither of these are needed, they are mostly looking at predicted grades.

I too felt a bit underwhlmed by the girls' grammar but thought the head and teachers we met were fine. So were pupils. They did know the Head. Size of school was an issue. However, I also was aware of parents who knew their DDs were permanently under the radar. Happy enough but not noted for anything. I felt both of ours needed a chance in a more personal environment and being the ever so slightly bigger fish!

I would say the schools we chose did help DDs with the talents they had. Others were more talented and nearly all musicians had music tuition in school as it was widely available. Some came very talented in the first place of course. The sports coaching was also a big plus for many parents.

The new Head was a disaster for a year. Never came into the boarding houses as the previous one had. So even in small private boarding school, no one knew her. When taling to parents she was lie a rabbit in the headlights! She improved in confidence but was not a great Head. This is, of course, a danger in any school. Staff changes. We lst a fantastic deputy head too. The replacement was anything but. You have to take the ups and downs. They happen at a good many schools. Even ones you pay for.