Is there still a significant different in pupil behaviour and ambition between state and private school?

[bws83]

I have a son in Year 7 at the moment at a private school, one of the key reasons for choosing the school other than the 96% pass rate and small class sizes was behaviour and discipline, we've found that children are very motived to be the best in class with regards their work, but most important bullying does not seem to exist, all children are well behaved and some even opt for using break times to do homework by their own choice. My experience in state school back in the 90s was a high school with a 30% pass rate of 5 GCSE's A-C, and regular fights between pupils and teachers. It was a very disruptive environment and quite intimidating at the time time to want to do well. I just wondered if its the same today or if things have changed.

My daughter is in a state school but it's one of the top state schools in the country despite being an inner city school. She's in top sets so I guess that makes a difference. The kids get on with their work, they go to the library to do their homework and they behave impeccably. They watch out for vulnerable pupils and include them. The added extra is that they are not segregated by socio economic class from the rest of society and therefore does not have a distorted view of the world. Just my opinion but there you go. You asked!

Interesting.
DS currently in an international private school.
Year 8. Boys and girls.
Boys attitudes are shocking. They can appear racist, snobbish and completely disinterested in any work what so ever. They have laptops that whilst meant for school work, are primarily used for gaming, even in class. A few kids have been expelled for physical bullying and truancy.

DH and I were educated in both state and private. I'm now considering moving back to UK and putting ds I to local state school.

I'm following this thread because I'm very interested to know what's going on in UK state schools. We left UK whilst DS was in primary school.

I do agree that it's fair to say that if kids are good learners and can stay away from the trouble, then state will be as good as any private. Unless you're into social climbing etc.

I'm just not sure DS will be able to keep away from the rouble makers.

I feel like we're wasting money right now.

The answer is, some are very good , or at leadt 'generally good' and some are 'generally bad' - on both sides. One of the differences, of course, is that indies can get reports on behaviour from the DC 's current school and interview potential pupils (and parents) in their attempt to weed out undesirable before they find themselves having to deal with them actually at the school, whilst state schools have to abide by the School Admissions Code, which makes taking prior behaviour into account largely illegal and interviewing (aside from 'suitability for boarding' assessments) illegal. Not having to abide by the same legal framework vis à vis admissions does also mean that indies can admit or not admit whomsoever they like and give no reasons, have no appeals process and exclude pupils for their own reasoms (another area which is tightly bound by the law in state schools). So if the behaviour is 'better' in a given fee-paying school than its neighbouring state equivalent, there may be reasons other than, the indie gets DC with the same negative tendencies not to express them - it may have done its utmost to ensure that it doesn't have to deal with them in the first place.

I don't know, but I'm very interested in this. I went to a very middling comprehensive. I don't remember actual fights, but there was plenty of low level disruption in class and smoking cannabis behind the the bike sheds. Although the results were ok (only slightly below national average), it wasn't 'cool' to try too hard so you didn't want to show you were making too much effort.

When I got to university it was easy to tell who the privately educated ones were. They were more self assured and had more confidence in putting forward their opinions. I still notice this now at work (I'm in an industry with a reputation for hiring a lot of privately educated people) and that is 20 years after leaving school! Obviously I don't know where everyone in the organisation went to school, but it does come up in conversation with close colleagues. I find it's very rare to come across a middle or senior manager who went to a comprehensive. If they were state educated it was almost always at a grammar, or at the very least a faith school.

My parents are proud that I went to school with a range of people from different socio economic backgrounds but honestly I'm not convinced it's been such an advantage (although I would never tell them this!) Ideally I would like something different for my own children but I don't know if we can afford private so need to look at what our options are realistically.

There are some outstanding state schools and some crappy private schools. I think it’s difficult to generalise.
There is shabby behaviour from some individuals regardless of school.
There are truly lovely youngsters in comprehensive schools and a few ghastly egotistical idiots in the independent sector.
In general, fee paying schools choose their intake carefully and there cannot be a fair comparison with a school that is required to take a much more diverse cohort.

Mainly behaviour is down to early and ongoing parenting. Set expectations of conformity in school early enough and firmly enough and then maintain it. Too often excuses are made and low expectations are set of children capable of far more than some parents will accept.

You "just wondered if things are the same or had changed" ... oh come on!

When choosing private, did you know nothing about your state options? You must have done.

By the way, all the Grammars near me get better results than your private school. You could have saved a lot of money if you could have used a grammar school. Even the secondary moderns closest to me get 60% with 5 4-9 grades in GCSEs including maths and English and are good schools. The dearth of secondary private schools (there is one for girls which is near the largest town) and not one for boys, means most parents are happy enough.

I’m sure you need to persuade yourself that you and your DC are superior but private schools don’t change quiet DC into confident go getters.

Can't speak for secondary as my DS is in private prep but the only frame of reference I have is talking to my friends whose kids are in state primary. The aspects we have noticed is engagement with teachers, my friend has been trying to talk to her DDs teacher about improving her spelling and writing and she's (in her words) found the teachers stressed out, over worked and bogged down with too many kids to teach. At my son's school, any hint of an issue and they are straight onto it offering additional support and guidance.

I guess there are good and bad schools on both sides of the fence so you go with what you think works best for your child.

I had a horrible experience at state secondary in the 90s and so this has played a major factor in decision making. I really don't know what they are like today. Friends have had mixed results some really good and some really bad.

Btw I don't go on results, I know two girls who were at failing state secondaries but got all As and A*. That said though they dis have to endure a lot of bullying which has scarred them.

There is no right or wrong answer. You do what you think is right.

LOL OP. Prepare for opinions to hit the roof...

Where's the popcorn munching Meme when you need it?

tenor.com/view/movie-time-movie-theater-watching-michael-jackson-gif-3579864

I can’t comment on state schools having no experience of them here but every privately educated person I know seems to be of the opinion that if they don’t earn well/do something exceptional they’re a crap person (the rationale being that if people without their privilege manage them it’s a given they can easily accomplish that, which is usually true). In contrast most state school educated people I know seem to be of the opinion that their own happiness/happiness of their families is paramount which I struggle to understand. I don’t see the point of living unless you either do something meaningful or have children which you raise to do something meaningful/equally contribute to raising children with potential (which is where earning enough money comes into it in the absence of meaningful achievements). Happiness doesn’t come into it, if I must venture an opinion on happiness I would say it’s counter productive, there’s a reason why pretty much every great person (artists in particular) have had unhappy lives, if you are happy what is there to drive you?

@BubblesBuddy I was a quite DC (barely spoke in school when I started, I was extremely shy and refused to go at all without my mother for the first term). Now I’m a confident go getter. Obviously a number of factors contributed but I know 100% that I wouldn’t be where I am without the school I went to.

Private schools can kick people out who are at all disruptive, and 'suggest they may be happier elsewhere' if not clever enough or have SEN. Private schools also are full of pupils whose parents choose to spend their money on education, so there will be pretty much 100% home backing that 'education is important'

State schools can't kick pupils out except for major reasons, they have to take all levels of ability (unless selective) and have a wide variety of pupils with SEN. As well as pupils from fully supportive homes there will be pupils from unsupportive homes. Then there will be homes that whilst supportive the parents are too busy earning minimum wage money at all hours to give much practical support.

Of course on average behaviour and ambition will be higher in private schools.

However my DD's (leafy) comp has good behaviour and high expectations and good results. It isn't a point of private = good, state = bad.

OP the school from your 90s would now be described as failing. I expect there are rubbish private schools too. (I am often amazed at the fact there are families paying £££ for education and yet still forking out extra for tutors.)

Depends entirely on the individual schools. You cannot generalise.

I have worked in both state and private and been to both. Behaviour/attitude entirely depends on the school and their intake. What set your child is in can also make a big difference. The amount of diversity also depends on the school. The two least diverse schools that I have worked in were both faith state schools. One in central London and one in east London.

Really?
I can't believe you think that.
You must know that this is not the case. See pp's.

If the school is good with good leadership, then this won't happen.

All the schools around here (Surrey) are very good. Ours is the local catholic one. (I'm not catholic, Dh's family are) and it is top in the country. Leadership is heavily involved, pastoral care excellent. Emails and phone call home if any misbehaving at all. Caring invested parents. In maths they have many sets. The top 3 sets are all planned to get grade 9 or 8 GCSE. Their grades for the whole year passing 5 GCSE's are ridiculously high, so I've no idea where OP's ridiculously low predictions come from?

I think you have wierd ideas about what schools are like these days. Or how or invested and involved most parents are.

Of course there are poor schools, struggling, failing schools. lots of parents (not on MN, in RL) who couldn't give two hoots : but that wouldn't be the school that you would choose for any of your children would it?

Have to agree with @TeenPlusTwenties that there are some really really bad private schools out there. I don’t know anyone who has been to one but I know someone who sends their children to one. The eldest has drug problems, the youngest is bored shitless and apparently the teachers complain about his inability to ‘conform’ (that is the word they actually use, I’d pull my DD out of a school like that as soon as I heard that word). Most of the parents are very wealthy but barely educated and the overall vibe I get from that social group (which I avoid) is selfish and entitled. There is no sense of obligation arising from their privilege. They’re also very much of the happiness is important school of thought. Like I said, I know a lot of people from lots of different schools who have a fantastic attitude to life but most of them are from public schools (using that word in the more modern sense). There are definitely some smaller independent schools with a fairly toxic vibe. I would always speak to people who have been at a school/taught at a school when considering sending my child there, especially if the school isn’t preeminent.

Yes absolutely. All private school children are hard working, well behaved, high achievers. Whereas all state school children simply spend their classes throwing chairs about and are happy to get 1 GCSE at grade 2.

... or maybe this depends massively on individual schools and individual cohorts of children? My niece (at private school) recounted a "game" at Christmas that she and her class mates had taken to playing - to see how much time they could waste at the start of each lesson before the teacher started teaching.

My DC go to a state school and yes there is some disruption, and yes there is some bullying (and I don't believe a school that says neither of these exist), and some children are not motivated to learn. But the vast majority are well behaved and want to do well.

OP, I don't want to be a know-it-all but you are being naive if you think bullying doesn't exist at your school.

This is so obviously an attempt to start a bunfight...

I honestly can’t think what you are hoping that to gain from this thread OP

Yes -All state schools are hell holes and are just the same as your one experience in that one school 30 years ago. All of them .
It’s a wonder my child makes it home alive at the end of each day. Sometimes we have to send in a tactical unit for extraction

Thanks so much for popping on to tell us how lovely the private experience is (again based on one school) and ‘wondering’ about the rest of us.

Too much of a mixed bag really. I've taught in both, best behaviour and work ethic was all girls' private school. Worst was a failing mixed sex comp. But between the two extremes it's a mixture. Have seen excellent behaviour and hard work in state comps, and very unpleasant behaviour & zero work ethic in mixed set private schools - mostly from the boys, it has to be said.

It depends on so many factors, particular school, HT, teacher, particular mix of children in a class, personality of child, pastoral support at the school. We all do the best we can for our particular kids according to the resources we can draw on.

It depends on the schools. Our local state senior has a 68% pass rate at maths for girls, but only 41% pass rate for boys.
I have a ds so we went elsewhere.

It varies so much.

“In contrast most state school educated people I know seem to be of the opinion that their own happiness/happiness of their families is paramount which I struggle to understand.”

Eh? You struggle to understand why people want to be happy?

Mumtown’s post is so full of issues I can’t even begin... Honestly, what on earth??