Is there still a significant different in pupil behaviour and ambition between state and private school?

[bws83]

I have a son in Year 7 at the moment at a private school, one of the key reasons for choosing the school other than the 96% pass rate and small class sizes was behaviour and discipline, we've found that children are very motived to be the best in class with regards their work, but most important bullying does not seem to exist, all children are well behaved and some even opt for using break times to do homework by their own choice. My experience in state school back in the 90s was a high school with a 30% pass rate of 5 GCSE's A-C, and regular fights between pupils and teachers. It was a very disruptive environment and quite intimidating at the time time to want to do well. I just wondered if its the same today or if things have changed.

Christ, yes.

There are good and bad schools in both sectors
There are pleasant and deeply unpleasant kids in both sectors.

I'm another one who can't get even start to get my head round Mumtown's post

30% ?

Most of the schools round here have scores of 88% or similar. 5 GCSE passes.

We have a huge number, I'm talking 100's of students who get all 9's.

Yes, private is better. Yes the classes are smaller.
But a good local school? Is not the shite that some posters seem to think.

100s getting straight 9s? I thought there were only 100s of pupils getting 10x9 nationally.

I'm not suggesting that your local schools aren't great by the way, but I think there's a danger in suggesting that 9s are commonplace. I had a friend who said her child would have been 'devastated' with an 8. There's enough perfectionism out there without children putting yet more pressure on themselves to get 9s rather than 8s.

2019 results for all 9s at GCSE.

78 pupils achieved seven grade 9s;
114 pupils achieved eight;
290 pupils achieved nine;
250 pupils achieved 10;
81 pupils achieved 11;
five pupils achieved 12.

Some sites show slightly differing results but all are in this ballpark.

In my area (Surrey) a pupil getting all 9s gets into the local press.

No, it's not about being superior. Academic ability is exactly that no matter where you go, and no one is better or worse than the other. And yes, I did check the local state secondary, has 17% of boys getting 5 A-C GCSE grades, and an overall score of around 30% for the entire school, so why should I put my son in that type of environment, a school in special measures, when there's an alternative. I asked the question to know how other state schools were, depending on my sons results, if it was possible for him to be in a motivating environment then why not state.

Perhaps, what's meant is to have drive, determination and aspiration in life is part of being happy, and to be lazy and not try in school and still be happy is hard to understand. Why would anyone want to fail and not build a good career, or heaven forbid go onto a life of benefits.

State or private, you can succeed, thats not what the post was about, it was about what you have to go through to succeed. I'm sure for liberals with large houses inherited or bought on the cheap in the past near the best comps, find it easy to go against people taking children to private, so sell up the house, and move to a tough neighbourhood if you want to be fair to those that cant afford your lifestyle, how is it any different?

My sons don't get 9's. So, That wasn't a boast.

I'm just saying there are lots of very good schools, especially in Surrey and Hampshire, with most children passing most of their GCSE's. And a lot of kids are getting high passes.

It's not that uncommon. In a good school, very bright kids, dedicated parents. They're bound to have good, high passes.

17% seems poor.

More than 4 million GCSE students each year.
2 million boys.
2.1 million girls.

loads of schools have a 77-95% rate of all 7-9's.

Just saying. Lots and lots of children won't pass, many if the GCSE's.

But let's not underestimate how many bright kids there are out there. All 7-9's, going on to Russell Group Uni's etc, which are ruthlessly competitive.

And no. My Ds1 isn't included in the above. He's just fine, but not in that higher level.

But let's not underestimate how many bright kids there are.

It’s a very curious argument, op. You must know full well that a state school getting 17% A-C grades isn’t remotely typical, and that your son’s current experience of private school is isn’t guaranteed either, in fact is fairly unusual.

In answer to the question, no but there is a significant difference in individual behaviour and ambition. That's it really. I have known hugely priviledged children, furnished with every opportunity available to mankind, drop out and do nothing. I've also known children from impossibly difficult backgrounds and home circumstances who were driven by an inner desire to succeed. I've known both situations at both state and private schools.

It is very difficult to quantify but parental involvement and encouragement in education is the biggest driver of success. However I would exclude parental involvement and encouragement dressed up as huge pressure to succeed at all costs and at the expense of happiness.

Plenty of schools are adept at massaging their figures in subtle ways too.

My own children (4 of them- different schools) have attended private school, top performing state comprehensive, super selective grammar and local non selective comprehensive. The school that has impressed me most is the local comp. Totally diverse intake but really genuine committed staff and a desire for everyone to reach their potential.

@Oblomov20

Let’s not get carried away lol there isn’t a single school in Surrey with pass rates of 88% and the country GCSE pass rate is 51.4%

www.compare-school-performance.service.gov.uk/schools-by-type?step=default&table=schools&region=936&la-name=surrey&geographic=la&for=secondary&orderby=ks4prov.0.PTL2BASICS_95&orderdir=asc

To answer your question OP, if really varies. I’ve worked in 100ish secodanries in London and they’ve ranged from very rough ones (police on premises at all times) to really, really lovely ones with fab kids. I wouldn’t say the correlation between the niceness of school, Ofsted rating and exams results is very straightforward at all.

You’d have to go and visit each school and draw your own conclusions. I’ve worked in both and had a child in both. One thing I would say is that private schools seem to have teachers who are less stressed.

the country GCSE pass rate is 51.4%

Typo. Surrey county is 51.4%. English GCSE pass rate is 43%.

Oh ok. Sorry if I'd mis-understood the figures and made the seem better than they were.

I think the problem is the framing of this question in terms of the school.

The issue is one of intake, and also the ability to get rid of those who you take in who don't meet the 'image' of the particular school, whether behaviourally or academically,

So consider a state school and private school who are truly 'matched' in terms of intake:

• Same distribution of abilities
• Same range of family income
• Same range of parent job types and parental level of education
• Same % of SEN, of all types - so the same % of children with specific learning differences, the same % of children with EBD and SEMH difficulties, the same % of children with SEN affecting learning.
• Same % children who would qualify for pupil premium

and then consider a scenario in which both schools are required to keep all the pupils that they have admitted, until the normal point of exit.

Then - and only then - would you be able to compare the impact of school type on behaviour and academic outcomes, so only then would the impact of e.g. smaller classes, the requirement or not for PGCE of the teachers, the money that can be spent on facilities etc (ie the differences that are specific to school type not intake) be visible.

While private and state schools have non-matched intakes, and while the ability for schools of the two different types to remove pupils they don't want, are different, the impact of the schools themselves cannot be judged .... and since the intake of private and state schools in the same area are ALWAYS non-matched, a valid comparison of the impact of school type cannot be attempted.

Incidentally I have just tried to compare academic data from state and private secondaries locally - as locally, the state comprehensive outperforms many of the private schools in terms of GCSE - but the private schools choose not to release that data ... I wonder why not?

@cantkeepawayforever

Independent schools position themselves differently and have different target markets. Some strive to be academic while others cater for less able pupils. The latter ones don’t bang on about results but tend to focus on being nurturing with a variety of opportunities and a nice experience for prospective pupils.

I hate generalisation.

I went to the local comp and then a run down 6th form college.

One of my friends had gone on to a top public school at 11 and at Alevel stage invited to me a house party at hers whilst the parents were away.

Filled with children from all the public schools, think St Paul's, St Paul's Girls, Emmanuel, Putney High, LEH, etc.

The behaviour was deplorable. Puking on curtains, having sex in the upstairs bedrooms, drugs, pissing on carpets because it would be funny, etc.

No doubt they all got top grades and went on to stellar careers but don't assume their behaviour is any better when you and the school arent looking.

"It is very difficult to quantify but parental involvement and encouragement in education is the biggest driver of success. However I would exclude parental involvement and encouragement dressed up as huge pressure to succeed at all costs and at the expense of happiness".

God, this this THIS times about a million.

The pressure on some children is insane.

JoJo,

I agree, but I think the reluctance to open their results to scrutiny and comparison - a luxury not afforded to any state school, who have results and Ofsted reports relentlessly published and made available in searchable and rankable forms - is unfortunate at best.

It feeds the disinformation war, where private schools state that their results / curriculum are 'better / more advanced than those of state schools', while a true examination of the data would show this is not the case.

MyuMe, I also agree that, locally, the drugs problem is worse in the private and selective schools, while perhaps the knife crime is worse in some of the state comprehensive schools ... each to their own vices!

Oblomov20. Hundreds of children in Surrey and Hampshire do not get all GCSEs at grade 9 either. There are only around 850 of those in the whole country!!!!

My LA county rate is 77% overall for 4-9 pass rate including maths and english. So not too shabby!

Going to a private school does not mean you can hold your drink either it would appear! There are fairly awful DC in all schools.Private schools see it less in the classroom because they cherry pick children and move children on if they are a problem. Of course they have no idea what DC are doing at parties. Although the appointed head boy at Harrow was not allowed to be head boy after certain behaviour at a summer party!

You do not just send DC to a private school for results though. There is ethos, facilities, sport and other factors. Certainly art and drama and music are oftenmuch better. The OP is right about those but the results argument is a red herring. DC are offered places on academic ability so you would expect result to be good.