Which is best for Engineering Degree 3 A levels or 4?

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Ds def doing Maths,Further Maths and Physics. He’s toying with chemistry too. He’s bright and should get 8/9s in these subjects but a tad fly by the seat of his pants, leave it all until the last minute ie not a swot. Would it be better to focus on 3 to get more chance of As? Ie are 3 strong better than 4 weaker? He’s supposed to do a project if not doing a 4th. Any ideas of something that would help with Engineering applications?

too ... top

Unless he can get at least 2As in the first 3 subjects, definitely stick with only 3, as Universities base their offers mainly on 3 subjects. If the uni wants AAA, but he has AAAA, that won't count as meeting the grades, so definitely at least 2A*s or it proabbly isn't worth it.

Titchy is right. Start with four.

It is not easy to predict whether you will find the step up to A level maths hard. There seems to be a ceiling with maths, and people reach it at different points. Maths changes. Acing GCSE does not mean you will ace A level.

So scenarios are:

1. He finds maths and fm dead easy, so given there is quite a lot of overlap between maths, fm and physics, he has time for a fourth.

1. He finds maths and fm hard. He is then very relived to be able to drop fm and keep up chemistry, and maybe rethink whether he wants to take a very mathematical degree.

1. He finds maths and fm quite hard but manageable. He therefore drops chemistry to concentrate on nailing the fm. DS, who struggled over whether he was capable of fm (though bizarrely then discovered at University that he has a real talent for statistics and metrics) was advised to take as much maths as you can at school. It is much easier to get support when you are at school than if you are at University when a lecturer attempts to cover the content of half a fm paper in a single lecture. (DS felt sorry for those without fm as they had to put in a lot of extra work on what was already a demanding course.)

Simples.

OP echoing others advice about starting with 4 A levels. Your DS in a year with a term of A level work behind him will be better placed to know what he likes. He might eventually decide that he quite fancies material sciences or chemical or even bioengineering. So leave options open as long as possible. For able students, 4 A levels that include both maths and physics should be very doable at least until the end of year 12. A bit more maturity will help him better judge how much work he needs to put in to achieve good A level grades, year 12 exams will act as a pointer.

He could also start looking at Headstart and Smallpeice course options They provide insights into university engineering and other STEM degrees.

Yes BubblesBuddymy dh went to Cardiff for his engineering degree without any Alevels 35 years ago with just the equivalent exams at night school none of which were maths.😱 He was the first person ever in his family to go to uni hence no Alevels. No idea how he got in, a friend’s mother pushed him to do it.He did say first year was hard and his first year was pretty much teaching himself catch up maths from this massive doorstop book which has been lugged from house to house and we are forbidden from ever throwing out.😂He ended up moving into coding and has been v successful. My dad went went to Filton Bristol via the forces and had a successful engineering career.This is our first going to uni and everything has changed so much. With previous family doing it in a round about route we’re feeling out of our depth re it all and school really aren’t that helpful. Just sent us to a careers woman who looked up his strengths and said he’d be well suited for engineering. No shit SherlockWe’d already told her he wanted to do engineering. No unpicking of Alevel choices, looking at him as a student, uni requirements or advice. Got parents evening with strict 5 min slots on GCSEs not careers days before deadline.They just seem more focused on the IB students who seem to get loads more info and support. I have contacted the head of 6th form who was helpful and said he could do 4 and drop 1 but they don’t really like or encourage students to do this and he can only do that up until the end of Sep. He’d need 8/9s in all 4. Bit worried a month won’t give that much of a picture but I guess we’ll just have to go with it. The only problem is they wouldn’t want him doing the extended project on top of 4 Alevels. If he then dropped to three he’d have missed the first month of sessions on it. Could ask if he could do that project too for the month but don’t even know if it’s possible timetable wise. Seems an awful lot to contend with for somebody like ds but I guess it would only be for a short amount of time if they said ok. If they don’t it is still a bit of a conundrum as I wouldn’t want to wreck his extended project result by missing the introduction of the course.

So Bubbles are you in the do 4 and drop camp as I think we’re edging towards that now?

Would a month be enough to gauge suitability and which to drop?

Thank you all for your advice it is really helpful.

Maybe a left field suggestion, but is changing schools an option? Starting with four, particularly when one of the four is FM is pretty standard you know - this school sounds a bit crap for him tbh.

Starting with four, particularly when one of the four is FM is pretty standard you know - this school sounds a bit crap for him tbh

Starting with 4 is not standard any more. And like the OPs school, our school (successful academic indie) doesn't let you do 4 for more than the first half term at the most. FM is slightly different, think thats allowed for those who are 9/8s at maths gcse.

This is a fairly recent change (last couple of years)

Having said that, I have relations at a grammar where some of them do 5 and I think 4 is encouraged. Massively stressful, no outside interests and not many oxbridge offers either!

Sixth Form has said he could do AS FM and extended project together so another idea just to complex things more could be Msths, Chem, Physics A levels and EP+FM AS.😩

Just let him do what he wants. He will get in to do engineering somewhere with good grades in any three.

I don’t think 4 is standard either. Don’t want him doing 4 just because and certainly not 5 due to type of student he is, only if he had to for a while but not sure how useful a month is.

Tree see he doesn’t know.

Well Chem seems the outlier for engineering.

Sorry that was Trewser. He really doesn’t know.

Friends ds is doing Eng at loughborough with maths, physics and PE!!

Wouldn't a good start be to narrow down the type of engineering and look at the league tables and email the top ten asking for typical A level subjects?

When one is FM four is pretty standard actually....

As his school do offer further maths I think you need to check that the universities who do strongly encourage it as an A level won’t hold it against him for not having done that option. I got the impression when doing the tours with ds last year that the reason the universities don’t insist on FM is they know that some schools don’t offer it and don’t want to disadvantage those students. Where schools do offer the subject I got the definite impression you needed a very good reason not to have taken it.

This quote from the Cambridge website “ It is worth noting, however, that there is a high level of synergy between Maths, Further Maths and Physics. This means that, for students who are taking this combination, offering a fourth A Level allows an applicant to demonstrate both high achievement in Maths and the ability to cope with a demanding workload.” suggests that those with 4 A levels are kind of expected as clearly they want students who are high achieving in maths and able to cope with a demanding workload.

Wouldn't a good start be to narrow down the type of engineering and look at the league tables and email the top ten asking for typical A level subjects?

You don't even need to email. Just look at the "entry standards" on the Complete University Guide and divide the totals by the points awarded for an A. It is pretty obvious that many successful applicants will be offering more than 3xA, though obviously you can't tell whether it is EPQ, extra A levels, dance music or whatever.

You don't NEED more than three, and three will be readily accepted, especially if he is coming from a school that does not allow/encourage four. However it is worth considering:

1. that places on top engineering courses are VERY competitive. You will never know whether showing that you have the capacity to take four will land the offer. Especially with double maths, where strong mathematicians find the workload for the two A levels are nothing like it is for say, art and French.

1. The more doors a DC keeps open at this stage the better. Their interests evolve and change. It is not just medicine that will not accept double maths. Economics at LSE will not either (and don't demand economics A level.)

1. Really really important. Lots decide to start a fourth and then find maths difficult so drop the FM. If he does is not expecting a 9 at GCSE he needs a plan B just in case. The A/A* in FM can be really hard to achieve if you are reaching your maths ceiling.

1. Keeping busy, and getting used to organising a workload, is good training for University, especially if you are heading for one of the very top ranked courses where other students will be working very hard. That busy may be having a Saturday job, or doing lots of music or sport, but it's the ability to juggle that is valuable when you get to University. Don't forget that getting the place is only the first step.

I always find blanket statements like some of them do 5 and I think 4 is encouraged. Massively stressful, no outside interests and not many oxbridge offers either! borderline insulting, as if they are Johnny No Mates who take the extra A level because they hove nothing else to do. Both mine did five and did not seem particularly stressed. DD was also a sports captain and prefect, did weekly volunteering, trained with a County sports team and played for a good club, whilst DS found plenty of time for computer gaming and played for a school sports team. Both were in nice friendship groups. Looking back I realise that both were well organised and simply got on with homework, content with "good enough" rather than trying to be top of the class, and never seemed to have a problem with concepts. Their peers were doing the same so they did not feel left out/different/swotty. DS, when he was quite young, told me he had cracked how to do well at school. Simple really: "pay attention in class". If you can do that and can pick up concepts, particularly in maths and chemistry, quickly, and are reasonably well taught, four should not be an issue, and good training for University.. And if it is, cutting back from four to three is much easier than switching from fm to chemistry. (Oh, and plenty from DCs school went to Oxbridge.)

That said, it appears that OP has already made up her mind on three and is simply looking for confirmation. I would argue that with overseas students, competition for places on top engineering courses is much stronger now than when the various DH's were looking. I completely agree though that you don't need to go to a tip top University to be an engineer. Surrey for automotive engineering etc.

Wouldn't a good start be to narrow down the type of engineering and look at the league tables and email the top ten asking for typical A level subjects?

When DD was pondering what to do as her 4th subject (she was def doing maths, fm, physics but also wanted to do the systems &control which was available then but there weren't enough for the school to run it that year) she emailed about 5 electronic engineering admissions tutors. Their contact details are all available on uni websites - of course, there's a lot of information there too on requirements. She chose a bit of a spread - not counting her chickens before they were hatched re GCSEs let alone A levels - so iirc Southampton, Sheffield and Loughborough were among them. She got some very nice and helpful replies. Which were all essentially that the 4th didn't really matter and they hoped they'd be hearing from her again.

This is something your DS can do if he wants - not you! Its good to make sure you're informed so you can help him make informed choices, but ultimately of course it's down to him.

Re deciding on the branch of engineering (and/or other subjects) it can be worth going to a few open days after GCSEs and go to the subject talks and department tours. Just a couple which are easy to get to, not a grand tour. The other thing which can be useful is Headstart courses.

Titchy, doing 4 when one is FM was standard until recently

This has changed in the last few years

AS levels have been dropped by many colleges as well. So “getting an AS” in a fourth subject no longer counts for anything either

There have been some big shake ups with A levels

OP, best to check entry requirements with a couple of Unis.

As to FM, my son got an 8 at gcse maths and did no FM for GCSE and is enjoying it at college (though he says most of his class did do FM gcse). The big question to ask yourself/him is if he really really loves maths. As the Physics/Maths/FM combo = a lot of maths

I signed up DS for this combo, if he would have had disappointing gcse in maths, he’d have dropped FM for computing.

Have to admit that I am not as wedded to the top uni’s as others on here. My DS has SEN and processing issues and right now it’s a miracle of sorts that he is doing A levels, is enjoying them, and so far getting As. There are many routes into engineering, and imo you can get a bit hung up about Cambridge etc when there is no need for such anxiety

I also see a lot of anxiety in teens, and doing 4 subjects when really you only need 3 just adds more pressure IMO. Every kid I know who did this quickly dropped the 4th subject.

All the info is online.

For Cambridge engineering, requirements are: 3 A levels, A A A

Subjects to include Maths and Physics

Further Maths as The third subject is “Strongly encouraged”

That is from their website

Yes but those are the minimum entry requirements. Cambridge engineering is hugely competitive. They will select those who they feel have the most potential, including resilience and the ability to balance a heavy workload. OPs son appears to want to take three rather than four because he does not want the workload of four, not because he has not got the ability.

Yes, that is true, only 1 in 7 get in

The websites tell you what is necessary in terms of subjects and grades. And for the vast majority of engineering courses, they will also be sufficient to get an offer (so, a sensible spread of UCAS choices will be guided by predicted grades at the time of application).

It's just the top few which have more applicants than places and which are likely to be the applicants top choice - oxbridge and Imperial basically - where getting an offer is less likely if the applicant doesn't have something else alongside.