Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Which is best for Engineering Degree 3 A levels or 4?

177 replies

S0upVat · 12/01/2020 16:44

Ds def doing Maths,Further Maths and Physics. He’s toying with chemistry too. He’s bright and should get 8/9s in these subjects but a tad fly by the seat of his pants, leave it all until the last minute ie not a swot. Would it be better to focus on 3 to get more chance of As? Ie are 3 strong better than 4 weaker? He’s supposed to do a project if not doing a 4th. Any ideas of something that would help with Engineering applications?

OP posts:
Doity · 13/01/2020 00:31

I know someone who wasnt accepted at Imperial as he only got an A rather than A in physics.He achieved three A and an A.All was not lost he was offered a place at Oxford the following year reading Engineering
To gain a place at the top Universities I would say do all 4 as some people do 5.If he wants to go to a good Russell group Uni then 3 good A levels would be okay.
Further Maths is really hard but does help with any science degree. My son found it useful with his module choices on his Chemistry degree. He had all A* at GCSE Three A at A level and a C in further Maths.I only say this as he was quite a good mathemation but he did struggle with further maths, as A levels are quite a step up

S0upVat · 13/01/2020 06:08

Is that true that all those with places at top unis do 4 or 5?ShockWe’re screwed then re him getting places at top unis, why aren’t school saying this? Kids pre sitting GCSE aren’t going to know if they can cope with 4 or 5 Alevels which you have to apply for now.Confused Surely few are doing that amount, why isn’t it said at 6th form open evenings? Not one we’ve been to has said this.

Spoke to his physics teacher who felt he’d cope with doing both physics and chemistry as a 4 but he’s really not a swot. Flies through all 4 of these subjects effortlessly and with minimal effort( good mocks barely cracking open a book). At some point this will run out and he’ll need to swot to get the highest grades. If he’s interested he’ll get swept up in it but there will be tedious parts even though they are his favourite subjects.Worried timewise he’s less likely to do what is needed for 4 than 3. He’s not one of those kids who study for study sake putting 100% into everything. He’s naturally good at these subjects, always does his homework but like many teenage boys often with minimum effort and nagging from me to ensure it’s done in good time. If something important comes up he’ll bone up at the last minute or will do a bit of revision but could/ should easily do more.Not the most organised his desk has piles of jumbled books and papers on.Confused He has a couple of swotty friends who have Oxbridge written all over them.Super organised, put hours of work in with charts etc. Pre mocks he had zero system or revision timetable, still did well🙄.Suspect he’ll try harder for the real things but still having to nag.His grandfather was a successful engineer and v similar at school( not organised and relied on brains), very disciplined/ good work ethic as an adult though. Hopefully ds will morph into the same Smilebut still a bit too early to tell.

Don’t think he’s keen on the Oxbridge idea but is interested in Imperial and some of the other really competitive places. I worry he doesn’t have the same work ethic as the Oxbridge type of kid, he is bright enough but brains aren’t really enough are they. That said he wants to aim really high, he was suggesting 4. I explained the above and the importance of 3 high so he’s gone back to the 3 but I really don’t want to screw his future up for him by making him make the wrong choice.Really not sure what to do now.Confused

OP posts:
Pepperama · 13/01/2020 06:31

Top uni prof here - advise him to start with 4, drop one if necessary. What he needs and what counts are the best 3, but subject choice and performance in fourth can sometimes decide between otherwise similar applicants. His school should give him advice on this!

S0upVat · 13/01/2020 06:51

They’re not, have to apply in a week.Parents evening a few days before. 6th form leader said he could drop if needs be but didn’t advise either way. Teachers can only advise on their subject not as part of a whole iykwim. Will try to get more advice but hard going.

OP posts:
S0upVat · 13/01/2020 06:57

It’s a gamble though isn’t it as the 4 th could cost him a on an A. I’m guessing the ones with the edge of 4 get the s regardless? Do top unis such as yours tell schools to go for 4?

OP posts:
Namenic · 13/01/2020 06:58

If he doesn’t work that hard, I think 3 is better - he might be able to concentrate and get A* grades.

Namenic · 13/01/2020 07:01

But I’m not working at a uni... just a parent.

mynameisnotmichaelcaine · 13/01/2020 07:05

I went to Oxford as did my DH and many of our friends. None of us have four A-Levels. Ex did Engineering at Oxford, 3 As (this was before the A*) in Maths, Physics and Chemistry. Oxbridge look for potential, not the number of A-Levels completed.

DD is hoping to go to Cambridge, she'll be doing 3 plus EPQ.

S0upVat · 13/01/2020 07:07

Is EPQ the extra project thing? What is she doing and where do you get advice re that?

OP posts:
TheHumansAreDefinitelyDead · 13/01/2020 07:22

Some MN users have outdated info, in the past few years the status of FM has changed from add-in to a proper A level in its own right.

DS is like your son, he got 8s for maths and sciences without much revision. Wants to do engineering.

The college he goes to were very clear that he’s better off doing 3 A levels and getting top results than doing 4. Some do 4, but it is not a requirement anywhere.

They recommended he does Maths, Further maths and Physics and an “extension in engineering”

The engineering gets you no UCAS points but is fun (they re designing a moon lander) and they do fun school trips, and it counts as evidence (for want of a better word) of genuine interest in engineering, and then they can talk about engineering at the interview with a bit more knowledge)

They get a few kids into Cambridge etc. every year, and other good uni’s, despite being a state 6th form college in a quite poor/deprived area.

Talk to your college/6th form/school to confirm the above.

DS is in his first year at college, really enjoys the above subjects and is working much harder now

SpinjitzuMaster · 13/01/2020 07:41

OP out of interest, is he leaning towards any particular branch of engineering?

I'm a doubly chartered engineer working for a leading design practice. I did Maths, Further Maths, Physics and AS Chem and got a first from a top 3 uni. However, chem wasn't really a choice; i was left with not many options in the 4th 'stream' as there was only one combination which allowed M/FM/P.

As an employer i actually prefer those who have done something a little different as a 4th subject - arts based is preferable. In my line of work i need staff who are technically brilliant with a solid grounding in maths/science but crucially a problem solving, creative mind. I also need them to work well with others in design based teams and be able to communicate with our clients, and eventually enough business acumen to be running projects/divisions.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that if he's not wedded to Chem then another subject might be refreshing and not hold him back later on.

I do agree that whilst FM is not essential, it will make the first few years at uni a hell of a lot easier!

Lastly...personal gripe...but there's no such thing as a 'typical engineer'. We're a broad church and trying to get an even better mix of people. Some of the best i know are as far from the stereotype as its possible tp get!

randomsabreuse · 13/01/2020 07:49

On the personality type I'd go for 4 - he'd be just as likely to fly by seat of pants on 3 and the challenge of 4 might get him motivated rather than "3 is easy for me, I'll be fine".

RedskyAtnight · 13/01/2020 07:52

Surely lots of schools don't even let you sit 4 A Levels these days ... (DC's school doesn't since the harder A Levels can in). So there is no way that universities can discriminate against those that only have 3 A Levels rather than 4, 5 ...

EmmaGrundyForPM · 13/01/2020 07:56

Ds is currently studying Mech Eng at a RG uni. He did maths, Further maths and physics for A level. His offer was AAA and he got AAB (B was in FM) and was still accepted.

MaJoady · 13/01/2020 08:03

Echo the advice to think about what type of engineering. He'll need chemistry (I should think) for chemical (obv!) but also things like materials engineering.

If he does a general eng degree he Mya not be have full choice of options without chemistry. That might not be a problem if he isn't interested in those, bit just something to consider.

I'm an Oxford engineering graduate, and did maths, chemistry and physics. No further maths (dropped history after as-level). I know entrance requirements have changed, but just to say in the first year our maths syllabus was basically further maths and I had no problem learning it then. Obviously it was a bit of a doss for those with FM, but I wouldn't overload at A-level unnecessarily.

okiedokieme · 13/01/2020 08:04

4 is good for the top universities but only if he can cope. Dd did 4 last year and got her grades required but doing 4 and then getting a lower grade won't help

CripsSandwiches · 13/01/2020 08:10

Certainly maths, further maths and Physics as you say. Would he consider Computing? Very useful not only for his degree in engineering where he'll need to code but also for job prospects in the future.

CripsSandwiches · 13/01/2020 08:15

I would also add, that as part of a team doing admissions for an Oxford college, albeit over 5 years ago now , if you're applying for a top, very academic university in which you'll have interviews and exams (STEP, MAT, PAT etc). You are much better off doing the minimum number of A-levels required and learning those subjects to a very high level than adding on extra subjects. (By learning to a high level I mean in depth learning not learning material beyond the syllabus). Don't take an extra subject which will prevent you having time to practise STEP papers, do Maths Olympiad etc. Likewise for Oxford at least in STEM subjects don't worry about playing football or the violin etc just know your subject inside out.

JBX2013 · 13/01/2020 08:17

Best A Levels? I work with schools and my family is full of Engineers so here it goes!

There is a difference in what you need at each stage from the first glance at your Application in an Engineering Admissions Team to you proudly picking up your Master Degree with Distinction after four years of study. The most important consideration is what aptitudes, knowledge and skills you will need to actually do the academic and practical work well and be a successful student, whether it’s for a BEng in Ship Science at Southampton or a combined BA and MEng in Information Engineering at Cambridge.

The Admissions people will look at your GCSEs - your ‘top eight’ – and your prospective A Level s in the context of your school, your school’s performance, your family background and your wider CV. Generally, the more Maths and the higher the level of Maths, the better. Physics is important, too. The more you offer from these three subjects, the more comfortable the Admissions people will feel. But do not rule out Design Tech or Chemistry, either. Chemistry is obviously vital for Chemical Engineering. ….So, three of Maths, Further Maths, Physics, Chemistry and Design Tech are fine.
Clearly, some courses at some universities are especially competitive. For example, Engineering at Cambridge is particularly tough because of it’s Cambridge, because the teaching term is only 8 weeks (10 or 11 weeks is normal), the volume of work is vast and the depth and breadth per module are immense and they go at a fast pace. Oh, and they recruit on the basis that you will last the pace for 4 years, right the way to your Masters degree. … Yet the 3 A Levels of Maths, Further Maths and Physics are fine if, overall, you show enough potential, including contributions from your written Admissions Assessments and tutorial-style Interviews. Some Cambridge colleges will offer AAA while others will offer AAA plus STEP Maths. You can get in with 3 A Levels and be turned out with 5, all 5 at A* grades.

But this is not for everyone and there are fine Engineering courses at many universities.
It really is about the individual’s esoteric overall strength in the context of their circumstances and, of course, the competition that year. For example, your Year 12 Maths could be pants but you just won a National Engineering Competition; that gets you in the frame just about everywhere and the university’s final decision may rest on how they feel they will support you if your Maths really is a bit weak or if they sense that you can do much better but your attitude is a bit casual. In real life, rockets land on the moon safely and come back in one piece and bridges remain standing in extreme weather because of sound higher level Maths; fortunately, talented, creative professional Design Engineers have equally talented Engineering Mathematicians working with them in the same large team.

Ginfordinner · 13/01/2020 08:38

DoE etc. not useful for applications

Having sat through countless subject talks at several universities I concur. Universities are far more interested in academic achievement, and in some cases work/volunteering experience than D of E.

I'm not sure that maths & FM count as 2

It does for engineering, but doesn’t for medicine.

But would poss 3 As be better than say AABB

Yes, definitely. This has also been pointed out at university subject talks. Even medical schools only want 3 A levels, but they must each have a minimum of an A grade.

As an employer i actually prefer those who have done something a little different as a 4th subject - arts based is preferable

Interestingly, at the medicine subject talk at York we were told the same, by the admissions tutor as it showed breadth of education.

Trewser · 13/01/2020 08:42

Interesting. What about applicants whose schools don't allow a fourth 'fun' a level? No state school near me would encourage that or allow it.

Trewser · 13/01/2020 08:44

I'm not sure about d of e. I know a few dcs with Gold and of the two i know (tiny sample!) who were interviewed, both were asked about it, both got good low offers.

AChickenCalledDaal · 13/01/2020 08:51

From the perspective of a parent of someone doing four, I think it would be a risk based on what you've said about his approach to learning. Four A levels doesn't just mean 25% more work, it also means having far fewer study/free periods during school hours. They have to be disciplined and keep working when their friends are playing about in the common room. If he's keen on engineering Maths/FM/Physics plus some supra curricular engineering sounds like a good option.

Ginfordinner · 13/01/2020 08:55

I think it must depend on the subject Trewser. For medicine and biomedical sciences we were told that they don't care about D of E. Medicine wanted work /volunteering experience as an extra. Boomed just wanted good grades.

Trewser · 13/01/2020 08:58

Yes i can see with medicine thst work experience would be preferable.

Swipe left for the next trending thread