Which is best for Engineering Degree 3 A levels or 4?

[S0upVat]

Ds def doing Maths,Further Maths and Physics. He’s toying with chemistry too. He’s bright and should get 8/9s in these subjects but a tad fly by the seat of his pants, leave it all until the last minute ie not a swot. Would it be better to focus on 3 to get more chance of As? Ie are 3 strong better than 4 weaker? He’s supposed to do a project if not doing a 4th. Any ideas of something that would help with Engineering applications?

If he starts 4 A levels, will the school still allow him to do an EPQ as well. EPQ stands for Extended Project Qualification, so I should think this is what the school means by project. It is worth up to 28 points (half an A level). It is new to me as dd has just started Y12, but from what I can make out, a lot of the points go for how the students plan and organise it, as much as what they finally produce. Hence it could help your ds build the skills he needs for University study.

If he can start by doing 4 and an EPQ, this may be best for first term of year 12 at least. A levels are different from GCSE. Though they are harder, with an extra year of maturity and being able to do subjects they actually like, he may settle into study more; this happened with DD. If he starts with 4 and an EPQ he can then drop either the EPQ or an A level if he wants, so his options will be wider.

Dd chose to do 4 (one of which is FM) and an EPQ. So far she is enjoying it and is coping with the workload, but chose to do this with the knowledge she can drop something.

FM is the hardest of her A levels. She often does not get things until she has been through it for the second or third time. However, I would think it is a quite good A level if your ds wants to do engineering at a top uni.

I would add that if a student is strong mathematically further maths and maths don't equate to two A-levels worth of work. For a student who is taking further maths at a push it could be a stressful two years.

I would also add that for students who are last minute crammers A-levels can be a shock. For GCSEs a fairly bright student can get away with a little last minute revision. A-level tends to be the time where this runs out as it's not enough to understand the basic facts they need practise applying it in order to develop fluency. For maths in particular revision mainly compromises doing lots and lots of practise which can't happen last minute.

I've not RTFT but a quick skim shows some of the usual misinformation along with correct info!

I've got a DD currently doing an MEng at Cambridge. She did Maths, FM and physics, the offer was A stars in the physics and FM plus an A in maths. This is what top engineering courses seem to need - not just the potential but actually to be able to do hard maths and hit the ground running. They don't seem to care too much about anything else (obviously I mean eng. except chem eng which needs chemistry). Except maybe a demonstrable engagement with the subject. She had also done a relevant EPQ ('artefact' rather than essay, designing and building a robot) and being fortunate enough to be in the last year of the old system, AS computer science (coding skills are definitely useful to engineers)

STEP has been mentioned - only a couple of Cambridge colleges ask for that, so I wouldn't worry about that in the mix. (And not relevant for any other engineering courses ask for that)

The main downside with doing maths, fm and physics, IMO, is if it turns out that the step up to A levels is harder than anticipated esp in maths. It's a real shame AS has been scrapped - I reckon it's a good idea to start a fourth to give an alternative. And even if they can't get a qualification for it, they will still have had a broader education - we sometimes lose sight of education as an end in itself not just a means to an end.

Someone mentioned Southampton - DDs offer there was one A star and two As; they allow for a dropped grade by admitting those students to the BEng instead of the MEng but they can still do the latter if they perform well enough in the first year.

I think you have a rather stereotypical view of what makes an Oxbridge candidate. I’ve got one at each (including a Cambridge engineering student) and I wouldn’t say either were super organised, swotty boys, especially at GCSE. They are bright and one in particular only works hard enough to just get the grades needed and has never really got to grips with revision even now. Bright kids don’t really seem to have to work that hard to get good GCSEs. Some don’t even work hard at A level and still do well (mine did up the game work wise for A level but I know at least one boy who didn’t seem too). If the culture of his sixth form is high achieving then I imagine he will also step up his work rate if necessary. My engineer did maths, further maths, physics and chemistry and then did olympiads, C3L6 and Tata prize as extensions rather than EPQ - essays and projects showing his methods really aren’t his thing so he found other ways to show extension.

I think start with 4, especially if the school are encouraging him to. If he really can’t cope he can drop the chemistry sooner than a year in, but as a pp said, he may feel he can coast with 3 and rise to the challenge with 4.

I'm not sure about d of e. I know a few dcs with Gold and of the two i know (tiny sample!) who were interviewed, both were asked about it, both got good low offers.

DofE won't make any difference in offers for good engineering courses. DD did gold - she barely mentioned it in her PS and it didn't come up at interview (all 5 of her choices interviewed, the other 4 being elec eng rather than gen eng.).
It's another of those things that can be useful as an end in itself, for some kids.

@ErrolTheDragon
While you don't need to take STEP for all Engineering courses it's a good indication of the level expected for a student at a top university. In fact many students who have offers from Oxford take it anyway because it's something to work towards after they've done the admissions (those kinds of students tend to find A-levels straight forward and enjoy the challenge). As a PP suggested I would definitely recommend taking 3 A-levels and also taking on STEP or similar (maths or physics Olympiads for example) rather than doing a 4th A-level just for the sake of it. You will need to take PAT for Oxford engineering and it's worthwhile preparing for it so you wouldn't want to be overwhelmed by your A-level courses.

That said taking further maths is a risk for some students if they can't cope in the end it would be an advantage to have a 4th subject so they can drop to single maths and still have 3 A-levels within 2 years. This obviously depends on the student - some students I could be very confident would cope.

I am pretty sure AAA is considered better than AABB so I think better to focus on getting 3 fantastic marks than taking on too much and letting grades slip as a result. Further maths is meant to be very difficult but i'd strongly advise it for engineering.

While you don't need to take STEP for all Engineering courses..

That wording implies you need it for some - I don't think that is the case.
The Cambridge aptitude test is taken in the autumn term of yr 13 well ahead of A levels and requires a firm grasp of yr 12 A level content (ie revision in the summer hols)plus some ability to think out of the box about novel problems. I'm pretty sure they're trying to configure it to assess potential in kids who've not had support to do 'extras'.

And most of the other excellent unis (our kids are fortunate to have so many good options) require none of this extra stuff to get offers.

It's not a question of doing extra stuff to get offers (and for the most part the extra stuff isn't even considered). It's having the time to do things which will get the students to learn at a greater depth. A student who is looking at top uni's isn't likely to be particularly stretched by the A-level syllabus. They'll need an extra push, doing something like STEP, Olympiads, maybe for an engineering student some kind of programming or robotics as a hobby is a great idea. Not as a necessity for university entrance (although learning at greater depth will be a necessity for the aptitude tests for Oxbridge) but because it will be engaging for them. A fourth subject shouldn't come at the expense of doing those other things for a student aiming at a top university. Whether the fourth subject is a significant issue will depend on the student and how much time they have available.

Anybody who is basing their information on admissions more than 5 years ago is out of date

NO course demands 5 A levels
Almost NO course demands 4 A levels
For engineering and sciences, interviews and personal statements count for less than grades in the relevant subjects

He’s doing Further Maths and Conputer Science at GCSE so would the hardness of FM at Alevel still be a shock?What is PAT and STEP?

Still going round in circles as it seems half and half option on here. 😩

opinion

ITA, holes. I would say that an engineering/programming project in the context of an EPQ can be useful. Not because it gives a qualification (the lowest ranked of DDs 5 choices gave 1 grade reduction on offers for a good EPQ ie it's almost irrelevant from that POV) , but because it imposes a structure - research, project planning, report writing, presentation.

His state school is very IB focused so not getting much info or advice re Alevel choices He decided against IB for engineering as would prefer to focus on the things he likes/ required for engineering.

OP
Have a look at the websites of some of the University courses and see what THEY say

I would also add that DH did admissions for Oxford in a STEM subject (most recently about 6 years ago - I imagine not much has changed) and so could say exactly how students were graded.

Unless the student met certain criteria (I can't remember the factors, I think one was they had previously been in care or they attended a school that was deemed to be failing in some way) in which case the bar was lowered they had to have minimum predicted grades in the required subjects to be considered.
Students then sat the admissions papers and this was the major factor in which students were ranked prior to interview (there was some consideration for GCSE performance but that was minimal, reference and personal statement wasn't a factor as they were all indistinguishable) . The students above a certain rank were invited to interview. Students were scored on each interview then again ranked as a whole. The students were then ranked again based on interview scores in addition to the aptitude tests.

The colleges who are the student's allocated first choice get to accept any students they wish to in the first place up to how ever many places they have. Some colleges (e.g. Magdalen, Merton) will have more good students than places available. Other less competitive colleges won't have enough decent students to fill their slots. There is then a meeting where essentially the colleges who have extra good students try to ensure they get a space somewhere and the colleges who haven't filled their spaces will try and get the best students from the other colleges surpluses. This happens mainly on rank of student(and there are various ways to decide which college can have which student e.g. if a student's first choice college doesn't have space for them their second choice college will have next refusal). This bartering for students basically happens on ranking since sometimes students will end up at a college they haven't actually interviewed at. As mentioned before the number of A-levels taken isn't a factor. It's almost entirely performance at interview and admission tests.

most recently about 6 years ago - I imagine not much has changed
WRONG
The whole structure of A levels has changed from Modular to Linear
in the last 4 years

I would recommend him (not you!!) calling the unis he is interested in and ASKING them. Get the info from the horses mouth.

@ListeningQuietly

I know A-levels have changed in that time but it is irrelevant to what I was describing. Most students applying to Oxford would be predicted almost straight A and certainly As in relevant subjects so the A-level grades are largely not a factor in whether a student has an offer or not.

I would recommend him (not you!!) calling the unis he is interested in and ASKING them. Get the info from the horses mouth

This.

Not sure why you're going round in circles.... do four in the first year - largely to keep options open, then drop one once he's got end of year results and done a few open days.

I think everyone on the thread is pretty much agreed on that?

I agree with Titcy, if the school will allow him to start doing 4 A levels and an EPQ, he can then drop one when he has a clearer view of what work he will have to put in for each and which he prefers. Why close options down before the courses have even started?

IMO, further maths is a step up, but not an insurmountable leap. Especially if taken in small steps. You just need the attitude of, "I'll get it better next time I go over it," rather than, "It is beyond me." (This being MN, I should imagine some dc just had to have the text book wafted in their direction to understand it).

Titchy they aren’t all saying that, I just read through. Many just say just focus on 3.

3 full A Levels absolutely - four is pointless. But there's no reason why a bright kid can't start with four and drop one after a year. It's a far more beneficial approach.

Starting with three is risky in that it puts all eggs in one basket. He may find the jump up to FM too hard - so then what? If he starts with four he can drop that one, and still not really be closing doors. If he only starts with three and hates FM, he's fucked, can't drop it, can't get onto a degree with only 2 A levels.. (well he can but it's a roundabout route).

If he's happy with FM, but suddenly has a yearning for Chem Engineering but didn't opt for Chem A level, again he's buggered.

Choose the final three from a position of a years knowledge of the subjects not assumption.