Which is best for Engineering Degree 3 A levels or 4?

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Ds def doing Maths,Further Maths and Physics. He’s toying with chemistry too. He’s bright and should get 8/9s in these subjects but a tad fly by the seat of his pants, leave it all until the last minute ie not a swot. Would it be better to focus on 3 to get more chance of As? Ie are 3 strong better than 4 weaker? He’s supposed to do a project if not doing a 4th. Any ideas of something that would help with Engineering applications?

Is FM likely to be that hard at Alevel if he gets an 8 in it at GCSE? He needs FM anyway for engineering, he can’t just dump it. That’s my conundrum. Doing just the 3 means he can give it his absolute full attention. Sorry I know you’re being patient.😬

Pick psychology as well, it is very easy to understand and you don't want to loose your ability to write really good essays.

FM and Physics have massive overlap so Maths / FM / Physics is a rather tidy Venn diagram to add Chemistry on to

It changes a lot but both of mine started with 4 and then dropped to 3 after a year (one did an EPQ as well but that was when AS still counted)

My son did an engineering degree with A Levels in Maths, physics and chemistry didnt need four a levels anywhere as far as I can remember.
My daughter is currently in year 13 and wanting to do a maths degree she started with four a levels in the first year Maths Further Maths physics and chemistry but dropped chemistry in the second year.
From her experience and bearing in mind she got 10 9's at GCSE FM is a tough subject and unless you want to do a maths degree its possibly not worth doing. She has had an interview at Oxford (nervously waiting).
Its also worth bearing in mind the extras that a lot of colleges do like the EPQ and a lot of uni courses have extras papers they need to do like MAT and step papers.

a lot of uni courses have extras papers they need to do like MAT and step papers.
Which engineering ones do ?

There is quite a lot of odd info on here. DH is FIStructE, FICE and FCIHT. He’s also an employer of civil, Structural and environmental engineers.

The idea of which are the “top” universities is an interesting debate. Although DHs consultancy employs around 120 staff of differing levels, they don’t see many from Oxford or Imperial. Cambridge grads occasionally. Everywhere else - yes. It’s well known that many Oxbridge engineering grads don’t go into engineering at all. Many go into the City. Therefore don’t necessarily think that “top” really means “top” for your ambitions. There are great universities such as Sheffield, Leeds, Southampton, Bristol etc which are turning out great engineers. There are also many former polys that offer a year in industry that have terrific courses. Don’t limit choices to the MN idea of “top”.

DS should not need 4 A levels. FM is also not required. It’s good to have though. Another way of looking at A levels is thinking about additional interests. For example, engineering will provide solutions to flooding. Would Geography be good if DS was interested in this aspect of engineering or planning? Think about what excites him about engineering and plan A levels accordingly.

Every engineer that wants to work in engineering will get a job. The jobs might be in a large consultancy with world wide offices but others will drive forward smaller companies and will need far more than engineering skills to be successful. Quoting for jobs, managing staff, meeting clients and working in a timely manner are all necessary attributes. A year in industry can help with some of this and can make a student very employable.

DH pays well and the “lower” university grads can be excellent. They have very high potential earnings. It’s not necessary to go to a “top” university. What is necessary is that you understand engineering, are an asset to your company and have multiple transferable skills!

a lot of uni courses have extras papers they need to do like MAT and step papers

No they don't for engineering

Wouldn't it be great if people gave relevant advice rather than using these threads as a not so stealth boast.

Bubbles' advice sounds good OP.

The idea of which are the “top” universities is an interesting debate

For one thing, oxbridge (and one or two others generally popular on MN but probably not even worth mentioning here) only offer General Engineering (or 'engineering science' in the case of oxford, or Chem eng, the latter of which does need chemistry. DDs view was that as she wants to be an engineer, Cambridge (general for the first 2 years, specialise for the second two) was the only one she'd consider - she looked at a range including Southampton, Manchester, Sheffield, Bristol, Leeds, Newcastle.... loads of good places, and that's ignoring the London and Scottish unis.

And for most of them, the requirement will be maths and physics , with FM 'desirable' but something relevant (chemistry, CS, a tech subject) likely to be acceptable for the third. Doing FM is wise because otherwise there's more hard maths to learn when you get there, not that everywhere demands it.

Great advice from Bubbles OP- take note! And yes an 8 at GCSE to a decent FM grade is a big leap.

Not a mum so just made an account to reply to this. I would definitely recommend he does 3 Alevels rather than 4 as a lot of unis dont really care for a 4th and if ur worrying about what this would do for his ucas points, as long as he gets As and A*s he should be good to get in wherever he likes. Also as an engineering student myself I would recommend that he does Chemistry A level rather than Further maths as it opens up to lot more potential career paths. Engineering is a very broad genre so the type of engineering I wanted to pursue changed every other week such as civil, chemical, robotics, electronics and so on but because I had chemistry I was able to explore a lot more than I could've without it. From your post ot seems he hasn't completed his gcses so I would highly suggest you wait for his results are to see what he gets better it (higher In chem than in maths) and tell him to not l focus on his end career goal but give equal attention to all of em and not forget his biology because his career aspirations may change because hes so young and dont pressure him too much.
Hope this helps and good luck

Wow shocked that 8 in maths/ further maths GCSE is a big jump to Alevel FM and that somebody with 9 9s found it incredibly hard. He hasn’t found FM GCSE hard.He can’t wait for results as ALevels need to be decided now.Doesn’t know which area yet. Starting to wonder if IB would be better or if engineering isn’t for him however much he has that type of brain or interest. 😩

I nothiced Sheffield would take an AAB + AS level at FM. Do all schools offer AS level at FM if the A level proved too hard?

Very few engineers require Chemistry though. Far more disciplines require Physics. However choices do go back to the type of engineering you want. DH also did an architecture course at school (innovative school) and Engineering A level (what happened to that?). He therefore was able to think about direction of travel at school and had plenty of good practical experience to make an informed choice. Unless DC is very keen on chemistry, there is little sense in doing it instead of physics. It closes more doors than it opens.

Also where engineers work in large organisations they will develop specialisms. That’s very useful for continuing in large organisations. There isn’t always the luxury of handing over a design to others in smaller organisations. It’s all down to you!

Most student engineers do choose their discipline first but there is some movement between courses. Far fewer courses are general engineering. It is also better to try and do an MEng if you can because it’s usually a quicker route to being Chartered. Which is the ultimate goal for higher qualified engineers.

The Engineering council has great advice for engineers and if he cannot decide which branch, check out the individual engineering institutions for more info. It’s best not to scattergun A levels, get lower grades, then make a decision! Make A level choices based on research of each discipline.

Lots of schools don’t offer FM at all! That’s why it’s not vital. It’s good to have but A* in maths would be great!

or if engineering isn’t for him however much he has that type of brain or interest

Eh? Why? The kid's bright, why wouldn't engineering be right for him? FM A level is hard, that's all. A levels are hard and he'll need to work. FM isn't vital.

Just pick four for now as I keep saying and at the end of lower sixth drop one. Talk about making heavy weather of something!

Not making heavy weather of it just know nothing re Alevels and unis or engineering, get zero advice from school and don’t want to screw up my son’s future.

Bubbles that was my worry re chemistry.

At Imperial someone I knew well in a specialist engineering degree regretted not having FM A Level as he always felt three steps behind on maths and had to work hard to catch up. He did well ultimately but maths cost him a first class on his averages. This was in the days when firsts were quite unusual as well (not now). He had 4 a levels but one was unrelated.

I agree with @titchy that it would be a good idea to start with the 4 A levels - at least for the first term. If the step up to FM is too much, your DS then has the option of dropping it. DD is doing engineering at one of the universities that Bubbles mentioned. She self studied FM AS level in year 13 and said it helped a lot with the first year of her degree. She did biology to AS level in year 12 as she wasn’t 100% sure which direction she wanted to go in. Final A levels were maths, physics and chemistry. 3 A levels at higher grades are better than 4 lower grades ...but only if they include maths and physics. EPQ is not needed. DD has found her chemistry useful depending on what modules you choose. Oxford requires the PAT test (so more prep needed) if your DS is considering applying - but Bubbles points are very valid re: Engineering science.

What would be an indicator that it was too much and what would be the cut off? Would hate to see him limping on with all regardless. What is AS,do all schools offer this?

You would need to ask school their advice and if they offer AS levels. But if your DS doesn’t take FM formally, he can still self study it. He doesn’t even need to take the AS level as just studying the pure maths and mechanics modules will help with an engineering degree (and with maths A level) - but double check the entry requirements of any university/college your DS is looking at.

It will also become clear quite quickly if your DS is struggling at A level but studying hard will help. A levels are difficult compared to GCSEs. DD found the maths fine but she found physics far harder at A level. 1 of her friends who got an A* at GCSE in year 10 and did an additional maths award in year 11, ended up dropping maths at the end of year 12 as it was too difficult for them.

Imperial College's website for Engineering says:

"A-Level:
A* grades in Mathematics and Physics plus a A grade in a third A2 level subject excluding General Studies. Further Maths is preferred as the third A level."

So by doing Maths, Further Maths and Physics he's doing exactly what they want.

My DS in y12 sat

My DS in y12 says maths is not a lot of work for those who do FM, which gives him time for extension courses (and coding challenges etc)

Please understand that Imperial is the ultimate gold standard! Why does everyone think it’s the only standard? There are plenty of other universities that will not require FM. It’s great if you can do it but it’s not required.

The universities that require it are cherry picking the most mathematical students but very many other courses are less demanding and less mathematical. That doesn’t mean they don’t produce great engineers. They produce different engineers! There are so many jobs available and too A level grades and degrees are not required for the majority of them. My DH hadn’t got a top degree of top A levels but I know his earnings from being a partner in his company, and now Founder, are very high. Yes there are fluctuations but the best people can make it to the top. Best isn’t always university attended.