Can anyone prove their parents didn't go to uni?

[whostolemypumpkin]

These days a lot of university outreach and other opportunities seem to prioritise applicants whose parents didn't go to university. Unlike free school meals, or ethnicity, it seems to heavily rely on honesty rather than being provable. Or have I missed something? Most people are honest, but perhaps less so when the stakes are high. Maybe I'm being too cynical, but I doubt it.

Job applications are also based a lot on trust. Depends how much front people have.

In terms proving you didn't go to university, we could produce a full work history for DH from the time he was 18 which shows he certainly couldn't have done full time university ... of course he could still have gone part time or by distance learning.

Outreach targeted at potential students whose parents didn't go to university surely is designed to put "university" into the mind of someone who may have thought it was not for them or whose parents may have been against it? If your parents have been to university this will tend not to be the case. Can't see why anyone would lie really.

Can't see why anyone would lie really

Depends on the nature of the opportunity - if it's just generic "demystify university" stuff then I'd agree, but I've seen some very oversubscribed subject-specific summer schools, which used to be "first come first served", moving in this direction.

Also, they're never specific on whether "going to university" includes universities that used to be colleges or polytechnics back in the day, so there is room for constructive ambiguity.

Agree, people may well lie.

Of course people will lie. Look what happened in the US with lying to get into college.
There are some very oversubscribed subject courses that look great on people’s ucas applications that now prioritise applications based on this kind of thing and it’s very easy to lie.

Well obviously people may lie but there are often other factors being taken into account too.
If a programme is oversubscribed then strict entry requirements will have to be introduced.

It's not perfect no. (Ethnicity is self declared too btw.) But the likelihood of someone gaining a university place on the back of attending a particular summer school because they lied about their first in family status is quite low, and asking applicants to prove their status would deter most genuine cases.

You can't reasonably expect people
to prove this. Some may have no contact with a parent, or parents may have died. What if your parent is halfway through an OU degree now. It's still good that they are targeting potential students who don't have university educated parents. Yes, some might lie, but most won't and those that do may get found out.

I bet people lie about this all the time. They are loads that lie about bigger things so this would be nothing to some people.

Well, anyone who had my parents fill out a form would have seen from their level of literacy that they hadn’t gone to school after the age of 13. Their jobs also did not indicate any level of educational attainment. There would also have been a record from my schools of the (not UK) equivalent of FSMs. I was also offered music lessons at primary as part of a bluntly-named ‘Deprived Children’s Music Scheme.’ Seriously — this was actually stamped on the instrument I was lent.

I didnt "go to" University but I do have a degree, that I did PT, whilst working and with 2 DC under 5 what possessed me ? Where would that leave my DC?

I think it's a well-meaning but blunt tool, that will be exploited. I'm not sure if anything could/should be done about that, but as so many organisations now seem to be using it I think it's at least worthy of discussion and debate. Normally the question us framed just as a yes/no checkbox, but it raises all kinds of "what ifs" ..
What if a parent went to uni for 3 months and dropped out?
What if the oarents were were born with a silver spoon in their mouth and didn't need to go to uni?
What if dad went to uni but he left your mum when you were 6 and you've only seen him one weekend a month since then?

What if your mum went to uni but she was the first in her family to do that, didn't get much support, ended up in a crap job and hasn't got anything positive to say about the experience?
I could go on.

It’s not possible to reach exactly the target audience and only them with these sort of schemes. It’s a similar story in Birmingham where the grammar schools give 25% of their places to pupil premium children with lower scores. Apparently you could arrange your affairs so that you qualified for free school meals for a short time (I don’t know how unless self employed maybe? And it seems a huge hassle but it’s what people claim). But apart from that there are children who were on free school meals for 3 months 5 years ago but in reality they are far from deprived.

However, I can’t think of another way to do it and at least some genuinely disadvantaged children are also helped in the process.

Don't people need to submit some documentation? Isn't it cross checked? As with everything else, it's probably impossible to eliminate all dishonesty but very few people with L2 qualifications and in low paid jobs have been to uni.

@crazycrofter In my area, grammar schools offer a percentage of places to PP children (lower pass marks for them too). Obv if someone has parents in professional jobs, lives in a 4-bed semi with a newish SUV in the drive, they won't be arranging anything. The parents who have wiggle room to cheat the system are the ones that are on he breadline anyway and they can qualify for free school meals by dropping their overtime in their low paid job for a few months for example.

To end my point, I wouldn't begrudge those families 'cheating' as even being 5k over the earning limit, they're still poor and could never afford tuition etc.

First generation students have been a target for widening participation initiatives for years - and rightly so.
It's not a new concept

Jeez, if anybody lies about something like this then they clearly need the place more than most

if anybody lies about something like this then they clearly need the place more than most
I don't think that's true at all. Do you think that about people who lie to get into schools either?

I think the more they put into helping people the more the knowledgeable group will exploit it, just like schools.

If I look at contextual offers. DD has just gone to university from state schools (comprehensive followed by non-selective state 6th form). Of her friends a number got contextual offers. She didn't and it's made no difference to her.

1. Went to all the same schools (from preschool up!) as dd, but they moved in year 12 to a "poorer" postcode.

2.Went to the same schools until 6th form, at 6th form went to a different one (which actually gets better results than her 6th form, but is in a "poorer" area)

1. Went to the same 6th form as her, but went to private schools from infant upwards, but lives in a "poorer" postcode.

Now I think contextual offers is a great idea. My df would have benefitted greatly from such schemes, and he would have deserved to. However from the above it looks too easy to exploit. None of them deliberately put themselves into the position of looking for it. In fact I know at least one felt rather insulted by it, and refused to consider the university that gave it.
It's too crude, and because of that, if it becomes widely known, you'll find pupils doing things like applying from grandparent address (you don't have to prove it) for a poorer postcode.

You also have it as 2 tier system at present, and to my mind it's far more than that.
How do you separate out on schools, for example:
Poor comprehensive
Good comprehensive
Grammar School
Good Private
Poor private

At the moment they're just taking off poor comprehensive. But there's also a world of difference between a good comprehensive and a grammar, or a poor private and a good private.

DD had one place that her offer was A A A. At an offer holder day there were people who'd been given the contextual offer of BBB.
This is a huge difference. That will mean that people will think it's worth the risk.

I don't know what the answer is. It's just the same as applying for schools.
I hope they don't stop trying to encourage first generation applicants, and I hope that they will continue to outreach to those who might think university is not for the likes of themselves.
But think they will have to constantly update it to stop people exploiting it. And the more hoops they put for people to jump through to get it, the more it will put off the very people they are trying to help.

I didn’t go to Uni but did professional quals and am a high earner. DH also didn’t go to Uni.

DS is in yr 11 at a grammar and is hoping to do medicine. I wonder if our non Uni background will benefit him, even though he is not disadvantaged at all?

I experienced this with DD, in second year college she decided not to go to uni but instead wanted to apply for degree level apprenticeships. Some of them wanted to know if the parents had been to university, I assume as this would guarantee an interview or something and show them as being inclusive and widening opportunity for the less advantaged? DD was unsure whether to put yes or no as she didn't want to miss out on the chance to get a place so she selected "don't know" on the forms even though she does know that I went. Obviously once you get to the interview stage you've got to pass it but I'm guessing the question is similar to the positive discrimination techniques used in recruitment for employment to get you further up the stages than everyone else?

There is no way for them to check this surely and they are relying on people being honest but in the field DD was applying for competition was high, thousands of candidates are whittled down for a couple of hundred places.

DD had one place that her offer was A A* A. At an offer holder day there were people who'd been given the contextual offer of BBB.
This is a huge difference. That will mean that people will think it's worth the risk.*

Those getting in with BBB on the course are at risk of not doing as well on the course as the AAA people.

But think they will have to constantly update it to stop people exploiting it

The thing is Witchend, the universities probably don't care whether people exploit it or not. I bet they are simply being driven by targets to demonstrate that they are "inclusive". It's perhaps the people who set the targets (If not individual university trusts then perhaps Government, in consultation with charities like the Sutton Trust) who need to be thinking about the impact.

who some universities care about it a great deal.

Actually OP 'first in family' isn't a target that universities are bound by at all. There are national priorities and associates targets - but this isn't one.

So when universities do target those sixth formers they're doing it because it's something they genuinely want to address.

Yes a few may lie and turn up to events not designed for them, but the alternatives would put off the very people they are trying to attract, and in reality it's not likely that many places are going to those who shouldn't be prioritised, and even less likely this affects offers.

The case of a standard offer of 2 A stars and a A being reduced to 3 Bs for contextual applicants is so unusual I'm afraid I doubt its existence. Sorry. One grade, possibly two below standard is the norm. And even then it's really only Bristol that has a consistent contextual policy.