Can anyone prove their parents didn't go to uni?

[whostolemypumpkin]

These days a lot of university outreach and other opportunities seem to prioritise applicants whose parents didn't go to university. Unlike free school meals, or ethnicity, it seems to heavily rely on honesty rather than being provable. Or have I missed something? Most people are honest, but perhaps less so when the stakes are high. Maybe I'm being too cynical, but I doubt it.

can you even quote the titles of my book?
Yes, but I won't.

Cola, I don't think I quoted Blair. I said Blair sent his children to a RC state school (and he then used tutors from Westminster School) and indeed his son ended up at Bristol when my daughter was there.

I agree Corbyn's policy is not the same as Blair's and I did not say it was. However both he and Corbyn went to fee paying schools and although Corbyn apparently divorced his wife because she sent their child so a better state school than he wanted (and who can blame her!) Blair was not as "pure" in that sense as he did not divorce his Catholic wife when she chose a better school based on her religion and he stuck with her. I suppose which is the better moral position in that case - your life long marriage vow or your determination to stick to the socialist cause even when it damages your children.

Stanley, I am in the minority on MN in voting Conservative actually. I don't think you need to worry about having views different from that. I just try to chip in to make sure all sides are heard but on many threads I am the only Tory supporter and as I said I am not against some consideration of exceptional children in poor schools which the universities have always considered. It is just the wholesale schemes that could end up unfairly applied if they are too broadbrush.

It's awful that someone who had been given opportunities would feel the need to lie about this

I must admit I momentarily considered ticking that box. I did an OU degree whilst caring for a disabled child. I also did a masters part time at a red brick, but only attended about 20% of contact due to caring responsibilities.

We are in Northern Ireland. I am low income due to being a carer. DS goes to a school that isn't in a deprived postcode. I rent (on HB) a house in a non-deprived area, although we are in receipt of FSM. If I ticked the first time uni box DS could be eligible to go to residential summer schools on a bursary, receive contextual offers and other perks that I can't afford otherwise. Essentially he is disadvantaged because I got a degree.

@titchy never said that YOUwere part of the right-wing elite, especially now you have explained what you do. That makes you a top person as far as I am concerned, despite the personal attacks. You have an unenviable job in choosing applicants. As I used to have the job of trying to make my students the sort of candidates you would make offers to, which was difficult sometimes but not unenviable, I loved it. Was I so wrong to try and give them the best chance possible?

@whostolemypumpkin i would not dream of asking you to quote the titles of my books, just interested to see if they are findable as others have had difficulties.
I'd be obliged if you would pm them so I can check if indeed they are the right ones.

@Xenia, everyone is entitled to their views and their votes. I am a bit surprised you are in the minority, judging by the number of posters who send their DCs to independent schools as opposed to those who don't.
Agree hugely that the broadbrush approach is bound to cause problems. Much like trying to apply various tax regimes, some will always find loopholes and ways of getting round them.

Stanley, I can see one book on Amazon, in kindle and paperback edition. It has a picture of graduates throwing mortar boards in the air, a long title in white font, and the blurb says its aimed at sixth formers who want to go to RG unis from state schools. The name of the publisher is the initials and same surname as the author. Published in 2018. One review.

It's probably best for you to not to go on about the book on here, not least because it puts your anonymity at risk. Besides, writing a book doesn't make you more of an expert - in these days of easy self-publishing it just means you've had time to write a book.

Yeah well you've found one of the two. by not pming me, now you have put my anonymity at risk, but I honestly think I don't care much about that at the moment.
The other book is right below it.
Writing the book didn't make me an expert. I am loathe to call myself an expert, but what proved to me that I had something to contribute was the fact that others asked me to write the book, or suggested others might benefit from it. However it has had some success and all those who have contacted me about it, which is a high proportion, have been positive about it. In fact I am about to see if specialist educational publishers might be interested in it because frankly promoting it is not my thing. All I want to do is help people and the rest is just a bit yuck. But thanks for confirming that at least it can be found.

...and now that we know who the expert on this issue is on this forum that is me signing out. Job done.

You've described the book on these threads yourself, and said it was the only book on the subject. I deliberately gave details that don't make it any more searchable than before, so I don't think it's fair to say I put your anonymity at risk.

..and now that we know who the expert on this issue is on this forum that is me signing out. Job done.

Jesus the ego

The interesting issue is how to be fair. It is something most of us grapple with all the tme even in how we treat our small children, who we hired people at work etc. Most humans have an instinctive need for things to be fair and just. It is the basis of most legal systems.

Going by pure exam results which remains the case for most higher education and most jobs is not a bad tool on the whole paticularly as you don't know if someone had been to a fee paying schol where no one had ever been to Oxbridge (mine - most girls didn't even go to university ) - I didn't try - surely I should have been given masses of contextual credit from NE England compared with someone at a state grammar in the SE which sends 25 girls a year to Oxbridge?
Or the abused child with alcoholic parents in a private school who against all the odds have got high grades through masses of hard work . In other words by all means contextualise and let the school write about the dreadful time that hcild has at home et cetc but perhaps not be too general that every state school is dire and all the private schools are great and for the academic high flyers.

Is the child from a background where neither parent has been to university (but the family are aspirant and education-focused) really any more disadvantaged than one from a child where both are educated but one or both parents have mental health/dependency issues, or the child where education has been disrupted by repeated moves? Clearly some families would tick every 'disadvantage' box but many children, regardless of socio-economic background, may tick one or two.

I do think it's hard to differentiate between which DC deserves "assistance" and which DC has been given "some" assistance via schooling in some way or another. Oddly enough it seems to be the proactive pushy helicopter parents who get their DC not on one but several of these summer courses...which I suppose is the subject nature of this thread.

Perhaps Summer Courses etc should start in reverse order...and prioritize DC who are on FSM's and have been in care ...maybe look at Progress8 performance...

@Oneteen, I totally agree. Actually, the pushiest parent I know is someone whose DC would probably benefit from the not having been to university type of contextual offers, including postcode. She and her DH run their own business, the DC go to tutors for subjects they're behind in, they go to one of the best comprehensives in the country.

First in family/first generation has been around for years and years. I went on several summer schools/residentials as a teen for being the first person in my family to apply to university (first out of anyone on my mum’s side, and still only, I think!). Often it has to be paired with other criteria, that are more based on demographics, such as POLAR data for your postcode, or school metrics (usually schools with low participation catchments, often schools that are ‘adding value’ based on pupil achievement at primary and secondary). There are whole datasets available to use in the selection process alongside what you tick in the boxes.

@oneteen They do. In fact, looked after children are prioritised for all outreach/summer school activities. Have a look at the eligibility criteria for the Sutton Trust summer schools for example. The more criteria you tick the more likely you are to get a place. This includes first gen, FSM, attending a state school with a low progression to HE among others

Which summer courses is everyone talking about btw? Is it Headstart, which has traditionally been for rich kids? Or something else?

I used to be involved in the process of identifying the best beneficiaries for a limited number of Widening Participation opportunities for one university.

Honestly I don't think lying about this would help anyone.

For a start, there was a criteria that could trigger access to WP potential:

• first in family status
• having been in care
• living in one of the most deprived postcodes in the country (we had a list)
• attending one of the schools with the lowest success rates at getting students into university (likewise we had a list)
• assessed household income by student loans company putting you eligible for the highest level of grant
• young carer status
• refugee status

The number of applications where the student met 3 or 4 of these criteria and sometimes even more always overwhelmed the number of opportunities available. They would be ranked by just how many triggers they qualified for, and if possible for the criteria where there could be any kind of scale rather than yes/no that would've used in the ranking. The top 20 in that ranking would be selected. It was heartbreaking to realise just how much the 21st & 22nd etc needed the opportunities too but 20 was the number we could help.

In the event that someone lied about first-in-family status they wouldn't be selected unless there were 2 or 3 other reasons why they should be selected too. It's hardly the case that someone with a privileged background could just lie about this (or even truthfully claim it in the event their parents were successful and affluent without having benefitted from university) and reap the rewards - there will always be plenty of people whose need for this kind of support is much, much higher.

foxatthewindow look at just about any university website and search for Outreach or Widening Participation and you'll find the sort of thing being discussed. Here is an example from Imperial College: www.imperial.ac.uk/be-inspired/student-recruitment-and-outreach/schools-and-colleges/students/on-campus-activities/programmes/stem-potential-programme/

fox there are a wide range of wp and outreach activities available from the vast majority ( if not all) universities. Some are quite genetic but others target specific underrepresented groups.

That example OP priorities those who hit one or WP criteria!

It's worth noting that not all external stuff universities do is aimed at WP. Public lectures for example are just that - for any member of the public.

I think it's probably fair to say though that anything aimed at sixth formers, which is likely to be oversubscribed, will prioritise those from WP backgrounds.

That example OP priorities those who hit one or [more of the] WP criteria!

Yes, and the more the merrier, so it must be tempting for people to tick the one(s) that nobody can check up on. I don't suppose anyone will be checking the income too closely either - it would be too expensive to do full means testing.

Sorry to be cynical.

It's fine to be cynical but let's not ignore the wonderful things some wp initiatives have achieved.

It's worth noting that not all external stuff universities do is aimed at WP. Public lectures for example are just that - for any member of the public.

Yes, and I think that's an important key to keeping the "squeezed middles" happy.