Can anyone prove their parents didn't go to uni?

[whostolemypumpkin]

These days a lot of university outreach and other opportunities seem to prioritise applicants whose parents didn't go to university. Unlike free school meals, or ethnicity, it seems to heavily rely on honesty rather than being provable. Or have I missed something? Most people are honest, but perhaps less so when the stakes are high. Maybe I'm being too cynical, but I doubt it.

It's the schooling that matters not the postcode etc.

If my DD had continued to attend the state school she left mid yr8 her predicted grades would probably be CCC (Average A level grade at the school). She has attended a private school since mid Yr8 predicted grades A* AA... So it's the same child but the difference schooling makes is massive, neither DD's DF or I attended Uni, that's irrelevant ..had DD continued her education at the state school she would not have been offered a place on any widening participation scheme because the postcode of where we live is graded 5 - very high progression rate...she certainly would not be applying for a place at any of the Uni's on her UCAS application.

The widening participation scheme should concentrate on assisting DC who attend underperforming schools e.g. the DC who tend to enter secondary education with good SATS but underachieve when they leave secondary school.

@Velveteenfruitbowl
In the comprehensive in which I taught, with some students from very poor backgrounds, (for example two disabled parents living in a council flat, or others where no one in the family has ever been to university, and thus do not have much of an idea of what is involved), what have I done wrong by helping these students get into Russell Group universites? Should I just have perpetuated the unfairness of their lives? Should I have just sat back and allowed "que sera sera"?
Sorry, but, having had the dubious advantage of a Public School education, I at least knew the advantages that such an education gave to the offspring of the rich when it came to getting into top universities. I used my knowledge of this to help my charges get into the top universities. Was I doing wrong? I don't think so.
As far as I was concerned I was doing my job and doing it properly. If all 6th form mentors had my background/knowledge and my drive to help their students succeed then there would be no need for the government to try to "even things up" by encouraging top unis to take more students from disadvantaged backgrounds, as well as students from ethnic groups, (don't believe me, read this www.theguardian.com/education/2018/dec/06/slow-rise-in-university-admissions-from-disadvantaged-students-ucas, or this www.gov.uk/government/news/scheme-encouraging-disadvantaged-pupils-to-apply-for-leading-universities-opens or most recently this www.ucas.com/corporate/news-and-key-documents/news/record-number-disadvantaged-students-university).
You may be interested to know that all this happened after I retired in 2015. Before then government "encouragement" was not so strong.
@Velveteenfruitbowl in an ideal world, education across the country would be equal for all students and there would be no need for parents to buy a better education for their offspring, there would be no grammar schools, no independent schools. MPs would send their children to ordinary state schools and everything in the garden would be lovely. But human nature being what it is, some parents always want to obtain advantage for themselves and their children in whatever way they see fit. So the ideal of equal and good education for all is not always achieved. In other countries where private education is no real advantage then people try to move into the catchment area of a prestigious state school, Henri IV in Paris for example. Even under Socialism in the old USSR where egalitarianism was supposed to be the norm, influence became the currency used by those with influence.
This is why I wrote a book to help students from ordinary schools get into top unis, and the two students mentioned earlier on, one of whom ended up in Nottingham doing English and Australian Law and the other who ended up doing PPE in Balliol and now works for the FCO, wrote endorsements. (I cannot really go any further on this, anti-spamming oblige.) So, I agree entirely with you that ideally the government should provide a "proper" education. Trouble is, even with Ofsted, which frankly is shit compared to old fashioned HMIs, this is very hard to obtain. Teaching is such a tough and ill-remunerated profession that few of those best equipped to do the job do it, in states schools, whereas those who do it in private schools are almost always better qualified etc. It is an easier and better paid job there. For instance almost all my teachers had Oxbridge degrees. If it was better paid and the conditions were better and private schools were illegal, then a "proper" state education would have a better chance. This is not to say that there are not a lot of extremely well qualified and well intentioned teachers in state school. there are and I was privileged to work alongside many of them.

@StanelySteamer so basically you think that it’s never going to be the case that everyone will get an adequate education so everyone should get a shit one? First off, it’s better that there are at least some people who are well educated. They are a great service to society. Secondly, if everyone is equally uneducated then you move further away from meritocracy rather than towards it. My family is from the USSR. They didn’t all go to medical school (most sought after degree in their city) because they were smart or somehow more deserving. They all went to medical school because their parents knew the right people. Having some well educated people is better than having none at all.

I also wanted to say that I don’t know who your first tag was for but I think you did your job really well!

@RedskyToNight there are definitely a lot of jobs you could fit around it. It’s was also pretty easy to talk the staff into switching your tutorial groups to lunch/after work. Hypothetically at any rate it was 100% possible.

I could prove I've never been to uni as I have worked full time in naff jobs since finishing college. Plus my current employer is paying for me to do an NVQ3 which they will only do of you have no higher than an nvq 2.

Being a first generation student actually has a huge impact on a whether someone attends university and more significantly, which university they attend.

“Universities probably don't care whether people exploit it or not. I bet they are simply being driven by targets to demonstrate that they are "inclusive"

Can assure you this is not remotely true, certainly at my institution. It matters a lot to us.

The widening participation scheme should concentrate on assisting DC who attend underperforming schools

They do. Plus those from low participating postcodes (note 'low' participating, not 'never' participating). It's a blunt instrument (though not particularly for the reasons stated in this thread!), but the vast majority of those targeted in such schemes will be significantly less privileged.

Incidentally, predicted 3 x Cs by a state school does not mean she would only have achieved 3 x Cs. The fact that you valued her education enough to pay for a much better suggests she would have achieved much higher than that if she'd have stayed.

Ironically I mostly worked because my degree had so few contact hours

So I could probably get away with saying I didn’t go! 😂

As mentioned previously, universities aren't measured on getting first generation students in the doors, but they typically ask this question to help select students if they are oversubscribed for a particular event or for ensuring the intervention is well targeted and designed to meet the needs of students attending. We all accept that this tool is not a perfect one and is open to manipulation which is why it's not really used in isolation. In hugely general terms, using this information along with other markers might mean talking about the pros/cons of HE to parents who haven't gone to university, application information, student finance info and signposting to other resources. The provision in schools can be patchy and may come too late when students (and parents) have closed off certain avenues so although the question may not seem important in the grand scheme of things, at a local level, it helps universities in their widening participation work.

@titchy
The government is using a very blunt instrument to try and make universities "inclusive".

hmm What blunt instrument is theGovernment using Stanley? Universities are not required to, or funded for, increasing the number of first in families. Where these interventions exist it's because the university actively wants to target this group.

Really Titchy, do I have to answer this? There are enough posters on this thread mentioning "blunt instrument" and crude" to answer your question. Simply "ASKING top unis to take a student's background into consideration is definitely a "blunt instrument".
As this article suggests, www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/maintenance-grants-university-students-russell-group-tim-bradshaw-diversity-a8471816.html
There ARE other less blunt instruments the government could use.
Ethnicty, low income in the family, postcode, first application from family to university, There are others that the government or unis could use. But as for having to prove it all. You are joking right? Re ethnicity, In Nazi Germany you had to be able to prove you were not too ethnically connected to Jewishness to avoid the gas chamber, do you seriously want to bring this in! Give us a break!

@titchy - Yes I valued her education hence I moved her because there is NO way she would have been in the situation she is now. The reason we opted originally for the state system was that her primary school HT stated she would perform well whatever school she attended...totally not true when you attend a school where the bright kids are bullied or not allowed to learn because of disruption in class. It takes an extremely motivated child to perform well in an underachieving school.

Likewise one of DD's friend's (Oxbridge calibre) opted to take a £4k Bursary and attend the local sixth form college (she left the private school with Straight 9'sA*'s). Predictions for A-Levels ABC - teaching/and an environment where DC want to perform is the key.

The grade difference is massive and DD's private school is BROADLY selective - but most girls tend to exceed expectations because they are in the right environment.

Can anyone prove their parents didn't go to uni?

Have you met my mum? 😩

Stanley I am fully aware of the range of blunt instruments that can be and are being used. I've been doing this stuff for getting on for 30 years. Some posters, including yourself, seem to be under the impression that the Gov gives £ for first in family students - that was the group mentioned in the OP. It doesn't. Neither does it give £ for BAME students, though Access and Participation Plans must address life cycle disparities in BAME (and other groups of) students. Ethnicity is of course self-identifying - how else? Not sure what your reference to Nazi Germany is for? I'm also not advocating students prove their disadvantage - the opposite in fact - did you think I was in favour of that?

Sorry Stanley - your style of writing I find incredibly patronising and 'mansplainy'. I'm sure we're all on the same side really

@Velveteenfruitbowl where do I start with you?
"@StanelySteamer so basically you think that it’s never going to be the case that everyone will get an adequate education so everyone should get a shit one?"

This is the most crass misinterpretation of what I have written on numerous threads on this forum and others that I have ever read. In fact the opposite is true. Quote EXACTLY from what I have posted that says this, if you can.You will not be able to.

Despite Ofsted, despite the poor pay and rough conditions, despite anything else that is negative in teaching in a state school in the UK, our education system is the envy of many other countries around the world. I am proud to have taught in a state school, I would never ever have taught in a private school as politically speaking I believe that children from ALL backgrounds should have a fair start in life. Some schools are rougher than others, mine was not too bad but it was creamed by both private and grammar schools in the area which made getting our students into top unis quite a bit more difficult. But we did it. As already stated I became a specialist in this field hence my previous post
.
You then go on about "it is better to have..." blahdiblahdiblah. This is complete crap. Even our ridiculously stupid government recognises that it is a good idea to have well educated people in the population.

Hilariously you then went on to underline the point I made about people in the USSR. I said "under Socialism in the old USSR where egalitarianism was supposed to be the norm, influence became the currency used by those with influence." and you then said "My family is from the USSR. They didn’t all go to medical school (most sought after degree in their city) because they were smart or somehow more deserving. They all went to medical school because their parents knew the right people."

So what were you on about...????

Then you mentioned "meritocracy", fine, in an equal society there is nothing intrinsically wrong with a meritocracy, but our society is a mixture of a plutocracy and a meritcracy, although the plutocrats always seem to find an excuse.
To me there is no excuse, to me having money and being able to buy a better education for one's children is doing down the children from poorer backgrounds. It Is NOT their fault that their parents cannot buy them into a better school or a better catchment area. To make no changes to this is to perpetuate the inequalities in our system. which is why I spent my time and energy trying to rebalance this situation. You can call me Quixotic, I don't give a shit, my conscience is clear. I did my best for my students, they "overachieved" they were grateful, their parents were grateful and all this made me happy. and it is the knowledge and experience that i pass on to others on this forum. If you have a problem with this then too bad.

But I am grateful for the acknowledgment which you weirdly put in your last sentence!

@Titchy
Firstly I am not at all under the impression that govt pays £s to unis for inclusion. I never said it cos I know it isn't true.

As to my rather tough statement re Nazi Germany, this was really just a statement as to how horrible it would be if all applicants had to prove absolutely everything about themselves and their parents before being "entitled" to any help from unis in their applications, rather than simply getting the grades and doing everything necessary to be able to prove themselves in a good UCAS personal statement.
I never relied on this, as I said in another post. I just gave my students the benefit of my experience and this enabled them to "overachieve". Life is an unfair bitch, I just try to make it a bit more fair.

Sorry if you don't like my "tone". My heart is in the right place and I have no problem with strong clever women. My wife earned twice what I did and my mother was a doctor so strong women have always been part of my life. So "mansplaining"? Not really. Cannot help being born male.
Patronising? One never knows the level of knowledge of anyone reading a thread. Perhaps I should assume more and explain less.

But yes, I am sure we are all on the same side.

Perhaps I should assume more and explain less.

You should read threads more, without comment, and for a decent period of time. You'd find there are quite a lot of MNers that know a great deal more than you on the subjects you purport to be an expert in. I told you in another thread to 'read the room'. Generally there are people here who know more than you and are better placed to advise, even if you have written a book.

Firstly I am not at all under the impression that govt pays £s to unis for inclusion. I never said it cos I know it isn't true.

Actually they do pay for some inclusion - just not first in family....

So yes, you are patronising and a mansplainer. And it rubs people up the wrong way.

@titchy
...and you accuse me of being patronising!

Generally there are people here who know more than you and are better placed to advise, even if you have written a book.

Especially a self-published book

I've written 30 books - not self published. Can I go to the top of the class! (And got 5 children into university.) Laughing as I type.....

the point about dumbing down, whichi s always a feature of socialiists, i s a good one -t hat the Corbyn wants to get rid of the fee paying schools he and McDonnell and Blair etc went to so no one can benefit from a private educational system which produces very well educated students, saves the state the cost of educating the 500,000 children who are in private schools and produces people who give a lot back to the UK. They just dislike things that are good and want everyone brought down to an identical common denominator.

I have no problems with a university looking at whether someone from a school where everyone gets bad grades who instead does very well and thre is no other expanation for that eg went to a private prep school or had coaching or tutors being given special consideration. However saying if you go to any of the 40% of worst schools means you can get in to a university with 2 grades less than others is a bit of a crude measure.

@whostolemypumpkin can you even quote the titles of my books?
Written at the request of OTHERS, by the way. Not for self-aggrandisement. I wrote them for the benefit of others not for the money. The last thing I need!

I didn’t even realise that ds1 MIGHT be eligible for something cos he was the first to go to uni

Then it turned out that They also means tested in his uni...so it didnt matter that he was the first

@titchy you are right, the more I read posts, especially on this thread the more I realise that right-wing elitist views prevail, and somehow they always have some sort of an excuse for them. People like me who try to redress the balance of inequality from birth get put downs etc. Call that "reading the room" if you like.
Won't stop me posting though.
By the way, comments that begin with "you should.." "you purport to be.." "I told you..." Who the HELL do you think you are? My mother?

@Xenia Blair definitely didn't say that.

While he was a leader of the Labour party his version of socialism is far different to that of Corbyn and the current lot in charge.

People like me who try to redress the balance of inequality from birth get put downs etc.

And people like me and several other posters on this thread who have explained, from the point of view of the universities, what we do, with what aim, and reassure parents that in fact such initiatives do generally target the right people and parents shouldn't worry that their child is at an unfair disadvantage, or missing out on something they're entitled to because another student has lied about their background.

Not sure why that makes me and other posters the right-wing elite.

Xenia - always top of the class