Would a quiet, shy, bright girl do better at a private school or in the local state secondary with her friends? Where was your quiet child happy?

[SkaterGrrrrl]

DD is only just 9 so I have a bit of time, but need to start getting my head around this. DD is very quiet and shy. She doesn't play with everyone is her class but is fiercely loyal to her one best friend, who has been her best friend from day 1 of reception. DD is pretty bright and in the top set at her lovely state primary.

We had planned to send DD to the large (1300 pupils) state secondary very nearby. When last year's Ofsted downgraded the school to Requires Improvement, the grandparents kindly offered to pay for DD to go private at secondary. Their offer is not just for fees but for everything - uniforms, books, school trips, sports equipment etc. We are grateful for the generous offer but have lots of doubts, some ideological, some practical, mostly we are unsure where a child like this will thrive.

I guess the advice I am looking for is, where will DD be happiest? At the large state secondary, will the teachers even notice her? She will be with her best friend and many other children she knows. She will probably be in the top set academically, if primary is anything to go by. At a private school DD will have to make new friends, which she doesn't do easily. And perhaps she will be in the middle, academically. But with smaller class sizes, the teachers will have the time to discover what's under her quiet exterior.

I'd love to hear where your child thrived.

Why do you assume someone in the top set at a state primary will not be in a private school? I think your views of private school education are inflated greatly.

DD1 was like your DD. She went to the local state grammar school and absolutely flew there. In year 7 she was still quiet but gradually came out of her shell. By the end of year 10, one teacher described her as bolshy (which I was secretly quite proud about).

DD's primary only had 3 classes in the school so until year 6 she had always worked with older kids. Her secondary school had 4 classes of 30 per year.

We looked at the local private schools but they offered nothing better than the grammar and we couldn't afford it anyway. After suffering in an all girls school myself, there was no way I would ever send either of my kids to one. If your DD is sensitive, is it really the best place for her?

DD is now in her 3rd year at Cambridge. She still meets up regularly with her school friends and thinks back fondly on her secondary education.

I think the main thing is the nearby school is marked Requires Improvement. I know Ofsted doesn't mean everything but for that reason alone I'd go for private.

Not necessarily. I'd read the whole Ofsted report carefully but also looking at reports and scores is no substitute for actually visiting schools and finding out for yourself what they are really like.

If she is a bright girl your daughter will not be overlooked at the comp as the school will be very keen to ensure she gets an excellent set of GCSE results.

I hated my small, academic girls school and think it would have done me much more good to have been with a true mixture of children which better reflected society as it really is. Education is definitely about more than results and opportunities to go skiing.

I strongly disagree that it's best to go to school with people she knows, she may well be tempted to cling on to them and not meet new people. And friendships change and old best friends no longer want to know, which can be heartbreaking. I've seen this with my own dc.

But I assume everyone at the private school starts from 11?

OP, it was passed round our school too! I think it would seem positively staid now though, sadly

Thanks so much for all your replies.

"Achieving highly there is something to be proud of not laughed at."
That sounds like a great school, Hoppinggreen. DH and I were both swots at school also.

"Don't base decision purely on Ofsted report as it is just a snapshot.". This is good advice, thanks pepsirolla. Most of the kids from our outstanding state primary will go to this secondary, plenty of families with a houseful of books, library cards and all that, so I hope the secondary will improve.

Thank you & best wishes

"In your position, I would focus all my efforts on finding a very nurturing and caring private school. She will be a different person by age 16 and might thrive at a state sixth form"

Thanks for this MrsZippyLake. I will be asking on Mumsnet in a year or so for all the insider dirt on specific schools!

"DD is an academic introvert in Y8 at a very large, very academically successful comprehensive school, and she is far happier there, as a small fish in a big pond, than she was at her smaller, more obviously nurturing primary school.."

BroomstickOfLove, that's great news that your daughter is so happy! Glad to hear this different perspective.

DontCallMeDarling sorry your DD is feeling lost, thanks for sharing your family's experience. I'll take your advice about visits and then continuing to keep an eye.

Popping back. You have had some good tips OP.

My DD was a quiet mouse in school until year 6 when she found her voice. That said she would still never voluntarily put her hand up to answer a question and she got lost from view because she was no trouble and did her work well.

As it was she also started to excel at swimming and the private school has a great swimming program. Then the local school was deemed inadequate by Ofsted.

I think clever kids with supportive parents can do well anywhere, private was the right decision for us, it may or may not be for you.

Good luck.

Just remember private isn't always best. Our local private girls school isn't well regarded within the private school sector. Certainly it isn't the type of school where clever is cool. Didn't sign up to the local large business outreach program to get girls into computer science (all other local state and private schools did)
Check carefully with local parents and make sure you go to a couple of open days where you can chat freely with the pupils.

Cheers MollyButton, I used to love Victoria Coren Mitchell's column in the Observer, I will check out her book.

And I'll check in with DD nothing underlying going on like bullying. Though she is cheery, chatty & confident within a very small circle - close family and friends. In front of new people she clams up.

Our primary does 2 parents' evenings a year, one in October and one in about Feb. Every year, at the October one, the teacher knows almost nothing about DD as she hasn't opened her mouth. By the February one, they are always full of praise about her work.

Her end of year reports say things like "DD's quiet nature should not be overlooked as she is always listening and her work is excellent".

My dilemma is whether, in secondary, with loads of kids and teachers revolving by subject (as opposed to one constant class teacher), the staff will have a chance to get to know her.

"I don’t think this is about spread sheets and which school offers A B C as opposed to another offering X Y Z. It is about where your dd feels comfortable".

Exactly this, Oliversmumsarmy

"I actually think if she is shy and quiet she would be best going to a school with people she knows."

YY. A big part of me thinks this.

I like to think now (don't know how feasible in reality) we would move her if she were deeply unhappy.

The ethos in private schools can vary wildly. There are two within three miles of me - one would be perfect for your daughter as it really brings each girl out of their shell, nurtures confidence and is a happy, caring school. At the other she’d get eaten alive (or as a bare minimum ignored).

I guess what I am saying is it’s probably not just a state vs private decision. It has to be about individual schools and where both you and she feels most at home. It’s a bit like buying a house - you instantly know which one is right.

I think you can’t under-estimate the extra time and energy that a private school can bring to bear on individuals. My dd has just moved from a state primary to private - I’ve already had a call from her class teacher just to check in (to say I was startled would be an understatement!), any emails I send receive a very quick answer, and before she started I was asked to fill in forms so that the music and sports departments had a full picture of her experience and interests. This is so much more personal contact and interest than she ever had as one of 30 in a primary, and I assume it’s because classes are so much smaller and expectations / demands from parents so much higher.

Having said that, I think with schools it really is all about fit. So have a look at all the possible options (ideally without your dd) and turn the long list of possibles into a short list of places to visit with dd. Do your research on MN and with local parents. Read OFSTED and ISI reports. And then make a decision based on the schools themselves, rather than sector.

One of the best schools Ds went to was a state primary that was in special measures.

It was just a really nice school with really
lovely teachers that helped every pupil

People would look at me with pity when I said which school he went to.

It is now over subscribed and flying high.

The worst school was OFSTED outstanding.
The staff and HT were just plain nasty and it infiltrated down to the children.
Any one with a SEN was not welcome

Whilst OFSTED ratings might look good I do think you have to read the reasons why

But I assume everyone at the private school starts from 11

Whilst a private secondary might start at 11 children will come from a lot of the prep schools around the area so she might get there and find everyone knows everyone else and if she is shy then it could be that she really will be on her own.

At least in the comprehensive even if her bf and people she knows do end up going off with new friends she will have some people she knows to get her over the first hurdle.

I know the effect of going to a school because it is good and being told everyone is starting out just like you and no one will know anyone only to find in a class of 23 all the cliques remained in place from prep schools.

You come out with no GCSES or A levels

I was sent to the local state school supposedly with my friends. I ended up in a different class from my best friend and never saw her in school. Eventually she moved on a made a new best friend which I didn’t expect and I never really made another best friend at school. So the moral is don’t assume that moving with friends means the friendships will continue.

My DC both went to secondary school with lots of friends. Both of them were put in classes and timetabled so that they scarcely saw their friends in lessons.

DD got lucky and found a group of likeminded girls in her class and the 5 of them formed a strong friendship circle almost from day 1.
DS didn't bond with anyone in his class, and it was a relief to at least fall back on his school friends at lunch times (ironically now he doesn't talk to his primary best friend at all, but his best friend is a boy that he got to know via primary best friend!). So whilst I agree that friendships can change at secondary, it does mean a good deal to have someone there in the first few weeks/months if you're not lucky enough to find an instant good friend. There are quite a few threads on MN at the moment from parents whose DC are simply not settling at a school where they know no one - and whilst this might be transient, it doesn't make a good start to the year.

Also worth pointing out that a large school is likely to timetable in groups - for example DC's school timetables KS3 in strands of around 80 students - so they mix only with these students for most lessons, and therefore don't necessarily notice the vastness of the school.

Are the private school classes really significantly smaller? Bearing in mind that for non-core subjects you might only see a teacher once or twice a week, if your daughter keeps her head down and doesn't really speak, the teacher might still be unaware of her.

The fact the state school is within walking distance is a big deal for making/keeping friendships as well. Unless there happen to be other girls from the private school living in your direction, it makes seeing them out of school much more complicated (my DC will go to friends' houses or just hang out after school at least a couple of times a week, whereas their cousins at a private school a distance away, really only seem to meet up with friends in school holidays).

That said, I do agree with the ethos and the feeling of the school being more important that setting out a logical arrangement of pros and cons!

One difference I've seen between state and private - and this is of course just anecdotal based on a handful of schools - is a subtly different relationship between staff and pupils. My DD is naturally quite deferential. I was the same, and it served me very well when jumping through academic hoops at school, but it was very poor preparation for uni and the real world of work. Being able to engage with those senior to you in an adult to adult way is a good life skill, I think, and my feeling is that DD's state school is better training for that. Of course it's school dependent, everything is, and some private schools excel at it. But this was one reason I felt DD would suit comp more than grammar, even though to an outside observer she would look like obvious studious grammar material IYSWIM.

I was like your daughter is described.
I am so glad o went to a mixed comprehensive.
I was actually rather unlucky in my teens as I ended up with cancer and had to go to school without hair. It was the boys who stopped the potential bitchiness and made me feel accepted. I knew girls the same age who attended single sex schools and really did suffer much more.
Also mixed prepares you better for the real working world where you work alongside both sexes.
Larger schools offer more potential friends and options as a quiet shy and ( at the time beyond ugly and bald). I was able to fit in and find nice friends including boys what actually never commented on my appearance when the girls made sly digs.
Also if money is available a house deposit and no debt after uni would be nice!

My quiet academic child is in outstanding mixed state secondary. She is doing very well - awarded their top pupil award for 2 years running. She doesn't have a tutor (one of the very few) but is incredibly self motivated. I think state schools foster more independent learning.

We had this dilemma too, but without the generous offer from grandparents to make it the no brainer that it would have been if we had! In the end, we opted for private..and she could not have done better or been happier, or have come out more rounded than she did. No poor relation issues either, most were like us, just scratching by from term to term. For people recounting negative experiences with bullying etc, this can happen anywhere, in any school.

Just to reassure on your point about potentially being "the poor relations" at private school -
Both our children are at private schools; DD moved from a state comp in year 8 because she is very like your DD in personality, and additionally has SEN, and was really unhappy in such a huge school. She is at an all girls school, year 11 now and thriving.
DS moved to a co-ed private school in year 7, now in year 9.
We live in a 3 bed semi, drive bog standard cars, holiday in Cornwall, don't have flashy social lives or expensive clothes etc. DS is on a bursary and the rest of the fees for the 2 of them are paid from an inheritance; my dad and my FiL both died. We have absolutely no spare money.
Yes, there are some wealthy parents at both schools and some students go skiing/cruise/Seychelles etc - DD's best friend's parents own 12 race horses, personalised plates Range Rovers (Pl.), big house with land etc - but we haven't had any experience of being looked down on or snobbery, and there are plenty of parents like us, who are scraping together the money to pay fees. When it comes to things like school trips abroad, not all students go on all of them by any means and money is never discussed, at least not in my DC's circle of friends and their parents.

I totally agree that being "the poor relation" is not someone to worry about. However, I think being further from friends' houses, and not walkable, is a bigger deal than it might sound. Also my memory of private school was being an outsider in my actual town. I went to guides, and orchestra, and ballet (parents thought this v important so I got to mix more widely than my school) and I felt like an outsider at all of them because the other kids all went to the same school, and I didn't.

Go to your local school's open day and see what you think. There might be some on about now because Y6s need to apply by the end of Oct. And don't pay too much attention to the Ofsted report. If it's something like safeguarding that will be sorted sharpish, and schools can swing round to massively undersubscribed to turning away in-catchment children in a couple of years, with an improved report.

Our DD’s Private school is less than 5 minutes walk from our house. Dd walks home with 3 other kids who live nearby and was at a sleepover with a school friend on Saturday very close by so while I agree that as there’s no catchment so people MAY be more spread out it’s not always the case. Plus generally parents have cars so are happy to taxi the dc around or have houses where there’s room for them to stay over/hang out.