Would a quiet, shy, bright girl do better at a private school or in the local state secondary with her friends? Where was your quiet child happy?

[SkaterGrrrrl]

DD is only just 9 so I have a bit of time, but need to start getting my head around this. DD is very quiet and shy. She doesn't play with everyone is her class but is fiercely loyal to her one best friend, who has been her best friend from day 1 of reception. DD is pretty bright and in the top set at her lovely state primary.

We had planned to send DD to the large (1300 pupils) state secondary very nearby. When last year's Ofsted downgraded the school to Requires Improvement, the grandparents kindly offered to pay for DD to go private at secondary. Their offer is not just for fees but for everything - uniforms, books, school trips, sports equipment etc. We are grateful for the generous offer but have lots of doubts, some ideological, some practical, mostly we are unsure where a child like this will thrive.

I guess the advice I am looking for is, where will DD be happiest? At the large state secondary, will the teachers even notice her? She will be with her best friend and many other children she knows. She will probably be in the top set academically, if primary is anything to go by. At a private school DD will have to make new friends, which she doesn't do easily. And perhaps she will be in the middle, academically. But with smaller class sizes, the teachers will have the time to discover what's under her quiet exterior.

I'd love to hear where your child thrived.

[Kazzyhoward]

I don’t think where you live or what you do matters but I agree with SkaterGrrrrl I wanted to go to the secondary modern with my friends.
Instead I spent the next 5 years floundering and left with not a single qualification.

I did the opposite. I had the chance to go to a grammar school in the next town (I passed the 11+), but chose to go to the local comp because that's where my friends were going. What a mistake to make! My best friends were in different forms so I barely saw them and the few people who were in my form from my primary soon found new exciting friends so I was excluded from them too! I ended up with no friends and ended up being badly bullied, and I dropped from a straight A* student to crashing out without a single O level to my name. I can honestly say those 5 years in the crap comp were the worst years of my life. A ruined education and teen years just because I wanted to stay with my friends which didn't happen anyway!

My son was in the same position - top of his primary year but very shy and reserved. All his friends were going to local comps. He took the 11+ and passed for the grammar in the next town. A lot of soul searching, but he liked the grammar and so he went for it. A few sleepless nights (for us), but he's absolutely loved every minute of it. As it had a bigger catchment area, very few people in his form knew eachother (they spread out kids from the same primary into different forms) so they were all in the same "billy no mates" boat at first, which promoted them making the effort to make new friends. He's now in U6, predicted A*s at A level, and is a very confident, popular boy who is also a head prefect and is involved with numerous extra-curricular activities.

[IdaNoh]

DD went to a private school where the ethos was 'if the girl is happy, she will learn'. She grew in spirit there, even with problems from a couple of bullies (it's an all girls school!) but they were definitely not in denial about the behaviour, which was refreshing. She did well there.

[Fifthtimelucky]

My elder daughter was similar to yours, OP. She was very keen to go to the local comprehensive with her best friend. Best friend was very outgoing and confident. My daughter wasn't, and I didn't think the local school would suit her at all. It had the ofsted rating of 'satisfactory' which is the equivalent of RI today. The ofsted report was full of references to poor behaviour management, and I knew personally two girls who had been taken out of school because of bullying, and knew others. GCSE results were not high at the school (no A level provision) and the quality of music there was not good.

We looked around for alternatives. There was only one other state school school that she could have got into. I thought that was better, but not much better. It was too big (twice the size of the local one), I knew someone who had to withdraw their daughter because of bullying.

In both schools, I thought my daughter would be completely overlooked while teachers concentrated on those who demanded more attention. Neither seemed to have high expectations academically. My daughter hated to stand out, and I knew she would just want to be average and fit in with everyone else. I underachieved at school (a bog standard comprehensive, where it was not cool to be bright) and didn't want to risk that happening to her. I'm not suggesting for a minute that this would have been the case in all state schools, but there are only two in our area that she would have had a chance of getting into.

In contrast, there are a lots of independent schools in our area, so we looked at quite a few. We ruled some out on paper, visited five, and applied for the only two I thought would suit her. Both were academically selective girls day schools. Fortunately she got into our preferred school with a scholarship.

Our experience was great. The class sizes weren't that small (25, but smaller for GCSE years, depending on the subject), but all the girls were bright and behaviour was excellent. I was aware of no instances of bullying the whole time. Expectations and standards were high, both academically and in music, drama and sport, and I was very happy for my daughter to be average.

We worried about the 'poor relation' thing too and, like others, had no issues. A boarding school might have been different (one reason we didn't look at them). My daughter didn't go on the most expensive trips, but neither did the majority of children. I found it refreshing that no-one cared about brands or about having their hair highlighted (unlike at primary school), and that no-one tried to get round the rules about uniform, make up, jewellery etc.

Because the school took girls from a wide geographic area, they put a lot of effort into ensuring a good transition, both in terms of formal activities and in how they divided children between the classes (geographically, so that they travelled with their classmates). The school had its own prep school, and there were a number of other local prep schools who always sent a few children there, but there were also a number of girls, like mine, who were the only child from their primary school.

Of course I will never know what would have happened if my daughter had gone to the local state school. She'd have done ok, I'm sure, and no doubt done well enough at GCSE to enable her to move up to the local 6th form college, but I think given her shyness and lack of self-confidence that either a) she would have dumbed herself down in order to be cool, so she wouldn't have achieved her potential or b) she'd have been teased/bullied/very unhappy.

I also don't think she'd have thrived at some of the other independent schools were looked at. As others have said, it really isn't a question of state vs private. It's a question of school A vs school B.

Someone mentioned bitchiness in girls schools. I can honestly say we didn't see any at my daughter's secondary school. There was quite a bit at her mixed primary school though.

[hoodiemum]

Oh, and if GCSE grades are the main concern, you can look at the government league table website for secondary schools and see how the high achievers from primary get on in GCSEs at your local state school, and look at girls vs boys too. Find the school via this link and click on 'Results by pupil characteristics'. The raw GCSE stats won't be a fair comparison with the private school, but this will give you a slightly better idea.
www.compare-school-performance.service.gov.uk/find-a-school-in-england

[hoodiemum]

In our experience:

• smaller classes definitely an asset for kids who are quiet in class and won't ask teacher for help if struggling.
  
• all-girls schools do fit the stereotype of being bitchy, worse for mental health issues, eating disorders etc.
  
• private school likely to raise the achievements of the naturally lazy, because minimum acceptable amount of work will be higher.
  
• naturally ambitious kids and people pleasers will be motivated anywhere unless very unlucky with teachers/peer groups
  
• shy kids find their gang at a big secondary, no problem; potentially more difficult at a private school with a small intake.
  
• shy kids who only mix with a 'certain type' of person (ie at elite private school - not saying all private schools are like this) will find confidence that bit harder in the real world than people who spend their teen years in a more diverse environment.
  

Pros and cons to both options.

[Velveteenfruitbowl]

Friendships change a lot over teen years. I think you should be looking at where she is more likely to make friends. Also consider things like the provision of clubs etc which will help her make friends and stay occupied.

[Mumto2two]

Should have read...'And they all say that the mix of people that attended their children's subsequent private schools (the same schools in some cases), was far more diverse than when they attended.'

[Mumto2two]

I know quite a few people who attended private schools, top boarding schools etc..being in our 50s now, that would be 30+ years ago now. And they all say that the mix of people that attended (the same schools in some cases), was far more diverse than when they attended. I certainly didn’t know anyone who went to private school when I was at school. There was one private school on the edge of town..and you rarely ever saw them out and about. We used to look at them in awe as kids. They were the elite crowd up on the hill, tucked away in their huge lofty castle... now my cousin’s child goes to the school. How times have changed.

[Hoppinggreen]

only one of DDs friends from her Private school are what I would class as really wealthy. The rest are children of teachers, IT workers, Accountants etc.
I suppose it does depend on the school but we’ve seen no snobbery at all

[Trewser]

It really was once a more rare elite that could attend private school, whereas today there is a huge spectrum of background and means to afford

I don't agree. Private education was much more affordable 30 years ago.

[Mumto2two]

I would say that aspect has changed completely in 30 years. It really was once a more rare elite that could attend private school, whereas today there is a huge spectrum of background and means to afford. Both independent schools I have had children at, have been reflective of that. Grandparents contributing are most definitely a common determinant these days, or people like us who have had to rely on remortgaging and juggling debt. We have never ever felt like we are outsiders, because this is becoming the new norm around here!
We are also deliberating the exact same situation, for the 2nd time around with our youngest. And having a quiet but academically able child, we know that the large state schools nearby, would be like throwing her into the lions den, so we are probably going to head down the private route again..

[RedskyLastNight]

less well off pupils aren’t (usually) given a hard time for being less well off

I think this depends. I think home lifestyle is more important than money. I went to private school from the poorer end of the (private school) wealth spectrum. However, my home life was sufficiently similar to the others for no one to bat an eye lid generally. For example, my peers thought a summer holiday in Devon rather than going abroad was perfectly fine, but I think they would have wondered about no holiday at all. I have one really clear memory of talking about Christmas presents and I said I'd received a "jumper". When asked what else I said "nothing". There was a real atmosphere of no one understanding how I could only have got one Christmas present. No one gave me a hard time about it, but I felt it marked me out as different and was self conscious (and yes, a different child with a different personality wouldn't have been bothered at all).
On the other hand, there was one girl who was on a full bursary and her family clearly had no money for anything non-essential. She used to cycle 10 miles to school which she claimed was for exercise, but I now realise was probably to save the bus fare. Her range of general life experiences was so different to anyone else's that she was considered to be "weird" (although she got along pretty well with everyone, I think she must have felt like an outsider).

Yes, I realise tis is 30 years ago, but I'm not sure teenage sensitivity has changed that much!

[zebrasdontwearbras]

Look around both schools as soon as you can - and talk to your DD about them. Her wishes will be important here.

My DD went to an Independent Primary - not a prep school or one of the hothousing ones - but a rather nice one where pastoral care was was excellent.

She has now gone to a fairly similar Independent Secondary school, just started in yr 7 and is very happy.

Do not underestimate the importance of her friends - moving to secondary with your friends can be a huge advantage for the 'quiet' children - my DS 2 was similar, and the presence of his best friends from primary was, I think, the single most important thing that helped him settling there. On this point, I'd be inclined to consider the state school, as long as it's not absolutely appalling, and she wants to go there.

Weigh up the GSCE results of each school too - the private school will almost certainly be brilliant, the state probably far less so. For me, the question of how bad the state school really is would be tantamount. A good set of GCSE/A level results, and she's got an excellent start to her life - and you may decide this overrides everything.

[FriedasCarLoad]

IME of independent schools (as pupil and teacher), less well off pupils aren’t (usually) given a hard time for being less well off. It’s extremely common for grandparents to be funding.

Surely it’s worth at least looking around the proposed school, to see if it’s somewhere you think your daughter would thrive.

[Weymo]

My daughter was so shy she’d go mute at times. She had a small friendship circle all through primary, but she then chose herself to attend a secondary which she realised all her friendship circle wouldn’t actually be going to. She was insightful enough to realise her chosen secondary offered superior facilities to accommodate her natural strengths in her favourite subject, which the secondary her friends were going to attend, failed at spectacularly.

She was my first child to go to secondary, so I’d done all the overthinking and research, but on reflection, now my Year 6 son is due to move on to secondary next year, let them go where their friends go. They’ll transition better with that support. Secondary will group primary friendship circles into the same form class so they’ll be with all if not some of their primary school friends.

However, nearly all kids are in the same boat when they start secondary, and at that age friendships will form. 6 month later, my daughter made new friends, despite her shyness.

I read recently on MN a similar post to your’s and someone commented nothing worse than being the poor kid at the rich school, that the poor kid may have their school fees paid, but won’t have the same trappings of wealth at home that their peers do.
Once the peers click that, your child could well be in for the worst time of their life.

A bright child will do well whichever school they go to. A happy child will do better. Friendships are important.

[Luxembourgmama]

I was s shy kid much happier in private school.

[Mynameis2]

Definitely go for the private school - lots more opportunities, smaller classes and a bright girl will thrive there. She’ll soon make new friends and can see her old friends in the holidays. My quiet girl started at an independent not knowing anyone but has settled quickly and made some lovely friends. I feel it has helped her confidence immensely. If your daughter hates it you can send her to the other school at a later date but I think you’d regret not giving her this chance and wonder “what if....”

[RomaineCalm]

There's been some good advice on this thread and some really balanced opinions.

My only thing to add would be whether your potential private school(s) go through from 5-18 as you may find that in Y7 the majority of the children move up from the Junior School with a handful joining Y7.

In DC's school a lot of children join in Y5 and Y6. It gives them chance to settle into the Junior School and move up with their year group. It also means that they escape the drama of SATs...

[DuesToTheDirt]

Friends come and go, I'd never choose a school based on friendships. It's quite common anyway for friendship groups to change at the start of secondary as there are other kids around, friends get put in different classes, etc.

[TryingAndFailing39]

My other ds was at a state primary and move to a private school in year 7 away from all his friends but settled quickly and benefits from small class sizes, great facilities and in his case the fact it’s a selective school.
I also wanted really mine to be at single sex schools.

[TryingAndFailing39]

My quiet, academic and musical teen ds is very happy at a small ish private boys day school. He has made lovely friends who are mostly quite similar to him and he’s very confident and comfortable in his own skin in that environment.
Of course I have nothing to compare it to but the ethos and facilities of the school are just what I and he were looking for.

[averythinline]

my ds struggled at big loud secondary as the range of behaviour and noise was too much.....and has thrived at his smaller private secondary..
I looked at lots ! as was concerned about this from yr 5 and even though teh one he eventually went to is one of the bigger private schools and not necessarily the most academic or anything he has thrived - the classes are not tiny 24ish before options are picked and the kids arent all great ....but the range of behaviour is less and teh teachers are able to make sure everyone gets their time because of that...

our local state schools are Ofsted outstanding/good but they have to manage a lot with a little..... we were glad we had the option dc did yr7 state then moved....

i woudl look round as many as you can (mine and DC favourite was tiny but he didnt get in and now dc older am glad as would have been too small)

[jewel1968]

My dd's state (excellent) school has worked well for my quiet academic DD. She has found similar friends and they are very close. I have noticed this year quite a few pupils have moved from private school to the school. It does have an excellent reputation though. I must say that it wasn't as good for my eldest who is equally bright as DD but had SEN needs. In some ways they are so academically focused I think those not so inclined will not have a great experience.

[Trewser]

"I think clever kids with supportive parents can do well anywhere".

Possibly. But why should they have to?

[mumsiedarlingrevolta]

I would like to share my experience-

DD who was a bit shy and young in her skin went from her lovely homely all girls prep school with lots of friends to a sought after, selective, academic all girls Private school.

It looked perfect on paper but it just didn't jell. She lost confidence in herself and the long bus ride meant she had no local friends.
At year 9 we moved her to the local all girls comp where she has flourished- passionate, involved teachers and great school ethos and she is a confident and happy girl so I guess I'd say I completely agree that it's not Private or State-it's the individual school's ethos.
Obviously this is one example and not everyone's experience but DD said at her Private school the teacher of Set 1 English asked the girls what they'd read over the summer and no one put up their hand as it wasn't cool to read
. At her State school the same happened after summer holidays and she said the girls were falling off their chairs in their eagerness to contribute.
The other factor is having local friends so important and more so as they get older. DD missed out on a lot because things were too far away- your DD may have friends that far away again in the opposite direction of the Private school so social life, parties etc just much harder work.

The other thing is that nothing is set in stone-if you choose one and it doesn't work you can change your mind and move her. Could you use some of that money for tutors to support her if she goes local?

I also agree that she will thrive wherever she is happy and has confidence. Keep your eye on the improvements in the local school and keep your ears open for any info on the private-it will have a reputation-maybe ask on local Facebook page- and you can decide which will suit your DD