Shocked at university entry requirements

[BeardedMum]

So DD is applying for university next year and has started to look at which open days to attend. DD has good grades (I thought!) and wants to do Science subjects possibly physics or engineering.

When looking at university courses it looks like a lot of them wants all A’s or A*AA. I thought those were Camebridge grades. DD is more likely to be predicted AAB or maybe ABB. Are really all the university students straight A students?

Also what happens if your predicted grades are not enough to get an offer from your chosen university, but you manage to pull yourself up. Let’s say you are predicted ABB and manage to achieve AAA.

I am so confused. If it helps she got all 8s and 9s for GCSEs.

Engineering and Physics are so mathematical, that if you can’t achieve a top grade in them, you probably shouldn’t be doing it.

Gosh, no wonder we're struggling to recruit physics teachers if that's the message that is being sent out. I'm a school governor and most of the teachers we interview have mixed grades in their specialist subjects. We never get any applications from physicists, so our physics is taught by biologists and chemists. They don't inspire students to become physicists, and students probably don't achieve as highly in physics as they would if they had a specialist teacher. Vicious circle!

In contrast, back in the eighties, I got a B for physics A level, and then a first class degree from a Russell Group uni. One of my friends got onto the same course through clearing with a D, yet he also got a first class degree!

Unis need to lower their boundaries if they want to get people (especially girls who are under-represented) through the door.

My understanding is the reason you have such a differential in grade requirements for different tiered unis is because at the higher end a lot of self study is required, so you need to be at a certain level to be able o do the course or you will struggle. At the lower end then there is a lot of hand holding and spoon feeding, and because of that support a candidate who is less able will be able to succeed. Hence why a degree from a top tiered uni is perceived as more valuable to many higher end employers, than one from a lower tiered. Because getting the degree was basically much, much harder.

The grade requirements being dropped on the day is only relevant if you have a conditional offer, or if there are places in clearing on the course you want, many courses for many unis have no places in clearing. As a pp said, it really is a competition.

The predicted grades is what unis base offers on, if a student doesn't achieve the predictions the uni might still give them a place, but it depends on how other students performed and how the student compares.

But ultimately picking a uni is about understanding how they teach and what is required of the student. Because once you get into second and third year, it can be very tough indeed.

DS had an offer of AAB from Exeter; in the end he got ABC and they accepted him (Physics). Its also about the character, out of school achievements and interview. Also, it's a really tough course and they need evidence that the student will cope.

Well grades are not the same as years ago are they? A quick glance at entry requirements will tell you that. A D grade is not really relevant now as a D really isn’t good enough for Physics or Engineering if it’s in Maths or Physics. The student will struggle and would be best advised to do a foundation course.

We have so many STEM courses, there is something for everyone. There are more practical degrees which are accessible with lower grades. They might limit access to the highest level of professional qualifications but they do provide the basis for a good career.

Haven’t read the whole thread but look at the universities which offer a lower grade if the student has completed an EPQ. A lot of them seem to do this now.

Virtually no universities interview. They don’t take much notice of other achievements either. Exeter just couldn’t fill the course! There are not enough Physics applicants so they decided to offer him the place. Oxford wouldn’t have needed to lower their grades. It’s all about bums on seats. However if you go into a top university with lower grades, don’t expect it to be easy. DD noticed this with MFL. They are very short of students so offer places to those with lower grades but then have to provide skills courses and study course because the students can struggle. It then tends to be stressful. If you have lower grades, choose the right course for you.

Back in the day, early before 1987, A levels were norm referenced.

A 10%
B 15%
C 10%
D 15%
E 20%
O 20% (O level pass)
U 20%

In maths last year 42% got an A* or A

This means that some getting A in 2018 would have got a D pre-1987.

Some getting a B in 2018 would not have even got an E under the old system.

So what is a current D worth?

Of course the grade boundaries had to change with the expansion of the university sector. With not enough students getting the grades required, there would be no expanded university sector.

TheFrendo maths isn't necessarily a good example as last year it was still modular so possible to juggle papers between maths & FM plus resit papers sat at the end of first year. Also it's a subject which tends to drop strugglers.

Not disagreeing with the sentiment only the example.

In my DDs school there is a high proportion who achieve A in maths, but very few As in chemistry. It’s a decent grammar school so I wonder if the teaching is just not good enough or if this is representative.

Does anyone know how University of Kent rate for Engineering and Physics? I know it’s not a top university, but I thought decent enough? Seems popular amongst DDs friends but they are not doing sciences.

I used figures from here: www.bstubbs.co.uk/a-lev.htm

I picked maths because it flatters my argument. Things do not look so bad for some other subjects. I think A level maths really has got easier.

A* & A now in Chemistry map to A, B and high C in old money.
A* & A now in Biology map to A, B and in old money.

It’s a decent grammar school so I wonder if the teaching is just not good enough

It's teaching. We have two grammar schools in our town, both rank similarly overall in the national league tables. Whilst most subjects are pretty comparable in terms of GCSE and A level results (Both put results by grade/subject on their websites). The one my son goes to shows far lower English and History results and very high for Physics and Chemistry. The other grammar shows lower Maths and Biology but higher English and history. From what my son says, generally the English and History depts are shambolic, both heads of dept are "old boys" who are close to retirement and just aren't moving with the times, and are recruiting like minded teachers, so their depts just aren't progressing.

The National Physical Laboratory in Teddington have an apprenticeship scheme for starters.

NPL has level 3 apprenticeships.
Chartered Physicist requires Level 7.

They do sometimes have higher physics-related apprenticeships come up, but these are for qualifications as a technician.

According to the Institute of Physics website (who do the accreditation) the only apprenticeships available are for physics-affiliated careers (e.g. technician and similar).

Obviously being a physics technician is a valid STEM career choice in itself. But I would not want young people to believe that they can currently do an apprenticeship to become a physicist. It's a different role.

DS2 went to a talk at school about apprenticeships, and was sold on the idea. He liked the idea of earning and getting a qualification at the end. The external advisors even helped him find a suitable physics-related apprenticeship. DS2 was keen and excited about it. When he and I went through the small print, he found out that it was not a pathway to the career he wants at all.

Apprenticeship are paid but on the whole at a very low level which means that potential apprentices are limited to what is on offer in their local area.

I don't think A levels are easier than when I took mine (around the time of the last ice age). What I do think has happened is that teaching for the result has improved enormously. Both my DDs (science A Levels and degrees) were focussing on exam questions from very early on. Something which only happened on my A level courses very late on.

A grade in chemistry is very hard to achieve. It isn't just a science, it has its own vocabulary. So few A grades may be representative though I would expect a grammar school to achieve significantly better than my DD's low achieving comp.

I keep checking back to the thread. @fishonabicycle - I have sent you a pm as well as the tag as we really want to know where and when did your DSD get into Bio Med with CCC? We are looking at Unis now and think wherever it is might be worth a visit - Thanks

Apprenticeship can work for people but choose wisely! A level 3 apprenticeship will not lead to a professional job in physics - you need a degree and PhD - it's possible in theory to get a job at a university as a technician and study part time but very unlikely because I think all the support staff here have degrees, but PhDs in sciences are available funded at least so that is more like an apprenticeship

@PiggyPokkyFool have you looked at Nottingham Trent? The labs are really good.

My DD did biochemistry there and loved it, graduated last year and is now working as a biochemist. She did a sandwich course which gave her very relevant work experience.

DD's BF did an apprenticeship in robotics, super competitive to get onto, far more so than a degree course would have been. He has since graduated with no student debt.

If you can find the right apprenticeship and fight off the compensation to get onto it then they can be amazing. But there is risk, ask apprentices at Carillion who had the rug pulled out from under them when the company went belly up.

I think apprenticeships sound very interesting, but I want my DD to have the whole university experience. I loved my time at uni, made so many amazing friendships and met so many people from different backgrounds and countries.

DS had interviews for physics at Exeter and York so some unis do interview (for entry this year) We were surprised at the grade requirements for Physics but as other have said it needs a certain level of Maths to enjoy the course! EPQ and interviews led to lower offers from 3 out of 5. As other have said it's worth looking at a range and having an inspirational and back up safety.

Virtually no universities interview

Depends on the course - everywhere DD applied for elec eng interviewed.

Does anyone know how University of Kent rate for Engineering and Physics?

I don't think it has any sort of reputation in engineering tbh. The solid 'second tier' engineering courses are more likely to be found in the Midlands, north and Scotland, typically.

Some courses will make an offer on an MEng but include a lower offer for the BEng - but then you can switch up if you do well enough in the first year. That might be useful for someone whose grades have been affected by poor teaching.

Oxbridge often request higher than this, such as AAA*AA

Nope. Cambridge may ask for two a stars and two as if the candidate has done 4 a levels but two a stars and an a for an applicant who's done 3. Maybe that was a typo and an extra A got on there. I think that's probably only on courses like eng. or NatSci where fm is in the mix.

Unis need to lower their boundaries if they want to get people through the door.

I didn't think Unis were short of quality applicants. Are there many Uni courses that aren't fully subscribed?

Apprenticeship are paid but on the whole at a very low level which means that potential apprentices are limited to what is on offer in their local area.

We've looked at apprenticeships for my son, but we're not close enough to a city nor any big industrial plants, so there are none that are practical considering very long commutes or having to pay for accommodation closer - the wage simply doesn't come close.

There are local/small firms offering apprenticeships but they're not really high quality ones and generally aren't towards professional qualifications.