Things you wished you had known about the 11 plus process

[Goposie]

For me, that the numbers applying are crazy and the sheer odds stacked against getting in.

“They are happy to throw endless kids under the bus in a school that isn't right for them though...”

I honestly don’t understand why you think people who are opposed to selective education want to throw kids under busses.......

Snow,

Honestly, it's been done.

Bert lives in the bipartitite selective system. She does not wish to home educate, so her children took the (universal, in her area) 11+ and were placed in the schools that matched their scores.

She objects to grammars.
She actually, in particular, objects to the secondary moderns that they create - in many ways, if grammars weren't socially selective, leaving the secondary moderns with a vastly harder task for less kudos and a lot less Ofsted success, then they would be less objectionable.

She ended up with 1 child in each part of the system whose existence she deplores. It is colloquially known as 'the grammar system', but of course it is also - and for much larger numbers - 'the secondary modern system'. So shock, horror, Bert objects to the secondary modern system but has a child in a secondary modern. And your point is?

It's very obvious.

Or does any vitriolic anti grammar poster here, deny that the merest out reaching to bright but un supported pupils in a state primary wouldn't help to increase the nos of those kids in grammar?

How on earth are they supposed to get in if they don't get the slightest suggestion of helping hand?

Or maybe you don't think bright poor kids would get in even with help.

You what.. I've also experienced that awful attitude with Northern relatives obsessed with people getting above themselves and not valuing education.

No buses needed here for throwing children under, either.

Decent comprehensives that learn from each other, and aspire to be like the best models of comprehensive schools, which are judged in the context of their intake - that's whart I want. No children under buses at all - just in schools where their classes can be flexibly matched to their ability [where does an excellent mathematician with poor English go in a grammar system, by the way? in a comprehensive they can be top set for one and a low set for the other].

I think you missed a huge opportunity for your children to make a change cantkeepaway. What you did was nothing, you turned your back, and unless you write on the internet about it no one would even know. Which is why you are posting it again and again. You even quote the phrase you want people to call you, you’ve smugly thought it all through then got impatient when no one bit.

But you got it so so wrong.

Oh well.

Next!

“Or does any vitriolic anti grammar poster here, deny that the merest out reaching to bright but un supported pupils in a state primary wouldn't help to increase the nos of those kids in grammar?”

Of course it would help. Not sure that it would successfully counteract the effect of privilege since birth, though. Which is why selection at 10 is always going to be unfair.

Me too! Me too! Social conscience and proud of it!!
youwhat and letstalk (are you the same person!?) you don’t get it. There really are people who genuinely don’t want to send their kids to a grammar school (or sec modern), but would prefer a decent comp. We’re not secretly jealous or resentful. We genuinely think genuine comps are better schools, even - especially- for our mostly thoroughly able kids.
Plus it would spare the whole family the collective expense and neurosis of the 11+, but most especially our happy and already busy 10 year old.
Plus we and later on the kids themselves would benefit from the knowledge that we haven’t invested in and helped to prop up what we know to be a deeply unfair, divisive, socially damaging system.
Really, so long as we do have access to a decent comp , it’s a no brainer! Really and truly!

Thanks for the intimate back story details of Bertrand life.

Very interesting, so Bertrand you let one dc go to the grammar when you could have sent them both to the sec modern.

So you mentioned earlier that invested parents were important to a school?

Have you made much headway into your dc sec modern? Have you managed to change it.. Being that invested parent?

And the dc in the sec modern has lots of friends from the bottom sets they are in?
Friends who self harm, deal drugs.. Are on a myriad of drugs to help with vast range of disorders...

This is where your expertise is coming from? Your dc has friends from good range across society?

And benefiting from it?

Or are you actually working with these kids?

If you think giving fsm kids the merest of help with the test would help boost nos in grammars and you know most state primaries don't do this why do you even mention the nos of free school meals in then

If pp kids and fsm were supported...and still they were not accessing grammars then you could complain but state primaries actively work agaisnt dc in this way.

Our own lefty head..
Won't even write in the box to support the review system.

Our teachers won't even comment on grammar suitability... Instead they give lectures on why they hate grammars.

They will not help or comment in any way on grammars and the 11+.
As a parent that has left me disadvantaged trying to navigate the system.

Luckily we have a good comp near by but.. That comp is... Failing its students who have extra needs. So my dd will be OK but luckily she will be safely tucked away in the top sets.. Luckily she won't be told by teachers that she will never pass her maths gcse
Is that any fairer!

But.. according to you Bertrand Russel that will be OK because my dd and the ones languishing at the bottom...

will sport the same uniform

Are there any vitriolic anti-grammar posters here? I haven’t seen any such posts. I have seen people making the point that a properly managed and funded comprehensive system would benefit all children, bright, less bright, wealthy, less wealthy, with and without additional needs. Yes, that would obviate the need for grammar schools, and in my view that would be a good thing. But I’m not being vitriolic when I say so.

Snowmageddon I’m sorry you’re having such a difficult time. I know there are online support groups and I hope you can get some advice from them if needed. Unfortunately SEN support is horribly underfunded in schools of all types at present - I see the result of this in FE, where I teach now.

Oops I see you’re actually posting generally on behalf of others not just yourself. I don’t see the point in primaries within a selective area actively not supporting children wishing to take the 11+. Of course the exam as originally envisaged was supposed to be tutor proof, but in reality no exam is. And this stressful experience for all is in reality not needed at all.

Will sport the same uniform

This of course convers a belief that the scruffier the uniform the more inclusive it is and representative of the community. Therefore any school that has ideas above their communities status, by asking parents to pay for smart blazers ties etc are perpetuating the economic unfairness of society.

A scruffy sweatshirt with school dinner spilt down it is the optimum level of school uniform for those that dream of the for-mentioned ' community high school' to be common place

Rememberyourhat

So, if I understand you correctly:

Bert has done the wrong thing wrt grammars, because due to where she lives, her DC attended schools in the bipartite system, one of which was a grammar.

I have done the wrong thing because I live in an area far enough away from the residual grammars in a partially-selective system to have the option to send my children to a comprehensive [Snow, it is a comprehensive, pretty much - far enough away from the grammars to be a comprehensive] but have not sent them to a grammar?

In case you think my choice has diminished my influence over the system I wish to change, far from it. Tracking the demographics of the comprehensive - like many schools in partially selective areas its history was as a true secondary modern - there has been a gradual increase in able pupils opting for it rather than the grammar. That in turn, over a significant period, has given a critical mass of such students, and now there is a stable comprehensive intake including the most able. Parents with views like mine, who have opted for the comprehensive rather than the grammar for their able pupils HAVE made a significant difference over time, by gradually creating an ethos where it is the natural local choice for pupils of all abilities. Parents like me sustain and continue that ethos.

Snow, as a primary teacher working within the partially-selective system, i don't particularly recognise your description. I advise - factually and professionally, don't worry - on grammar suitability for a very large number of my pupils each year.

A scruffy sweatshirt with school dinner spilt down it is the optimum level of school uniform for those that dream of the for-mentioned ' community high school' to be common place

Evidence? Locally, the uniform of the 'community high school' [comprehensive] is IDENTICAL to that of the grammar except for the blazer badge, tie and a slightly different skirt for girls. Thinking around all the local comprehensives, blazer in a supermarket-available colour and black or grey skirts / trousers are universal and universally smart. The grammars are identical in 'content' - blazer, skirt, trousers, shirt / blouse - but go for single-supplier colours / designs, at slightly higher cost.

The private schools ...now they're much more 'out there' in terms of uniform. Kilts. Lots of kilts. And 47 varieties of games kit....

Uniform can, of course be a very effective means of backdoor selection.......

I can’t remember when I last saw a secondary school with a sweatshirt......

So - one point I would make ( and as upthread ) my DS went to a fee paying school - shoot me now.

But when we were thinking about this ( not in a grammar / secondary modern the only choice sort of region)

DS has an Spld ( dyslexia) . One thing which I had not considered before my experience with DS , is that children' development can be a bit up and down. So - e.g. DS all clever clever until about aged 8 or 9. Took a dive. He is a bright boy & has the certificates to prove it. But , I have sympathy with those who say 10 is too young to divide children into schools. DS did go to a selective school at 13. ( Is 13 better then 11 - I don't know , I just know a year or two made a difference to him.) So I appreciate I am not adding greatly ( at all ) to this debate , His school btw had a dress code - not a uniform though sweat shirts not for day to day wear - I'll admit.

The uniform point is a good one. The grammars round here all have expensive blazers (boys) and kilts (girls)

@BertrandRussell

My daughters partially selective school has a polo shirt and sweatshirt uniform.

Was not sure on idea at first as had images of those lovely smart blazer and kilt photos.

However it was reasonably priced, washes easy and is comfortable. And in the summer there won't be any of those not allowed to take their blazer off stories in the newspaper!

Basilik there are always two points which are IMO falsely concatenated when these eleven plus debates occur.

The first is yours which relates to the best age for for the ‘rightness’ academic selection (independently of family advantage).

The other is the view below that choosing a best fit school for a DC is morally wrong.

^I appreciate, by the way, that mine is a minority viewpoint. i only wished to challenge ALL parents just want the best school for their children. Not all parents do.
I don't, because i don't want to disadvantage others.^

IMO only very few parents valuing education would took this to its logical extreme at all stages of their DCs’ education and without, if unlucky in the school, trying to compensate for disadvantages within the classroom. I certainly would n’t and I have n’t been persuaded that there are any posters here who would.

Don’t believe the myths and do your own research would be my top tip. Our comps are all expensive fancy logos shirts and jumpers with kilts. One of our grammars are trousers blazers and shirts from anywhere with a badge you buy and stick on. The girls school uniform came from the same huge online shop as the comps and was cheaper,than the comps as not logoed( bar the blazer) and plainer.PP kids get it free. I bought 1 skirt around £20 which washes up beautifully overnight. Blazer about £36 has saved me a fortune in costs they refuse to wear anytime anywhere.😂

I’ve lost count of the people who told us the girls were anorexic druggy sluts😰( I kid you not). Completely untrue. My dd has seen the kids of the same parents who told us that trying for mid year places 3 years down the line.🤔

Dont believe the myths and do your own research.

Coats

There won't be many who given the choice of best fit school for their child would choose a sec mod over a comp. The choice isn't there if you are in a grammar area. By giving the grammar option you are taking away the choice of others to go to a comp and leaving them with something worse.

The best fit school for my DS is a comp (top set English, debate club, triple science, low set Maths).