Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Original poster

Things you wished you had known about the 11 plus process

749 replies

Goposie · 02/02/2019 08:30

For me, that the numbers applying are crazy and the sheer odds stacked against getting in.

OP posts:
Kazzyhoward · 12/02/2019 08:14

I suspect not one person who loves the grammar school system failed the 11+ and went to a secondary modern.

I've been in favour of the grammar system ever since it was scrapped in our area a couple of years before I would have taken it. I was a straight A student at primary school so would probably have passed it - a third of the kids from our primary went to the grammar. My parents fell for the hype about how "everyone would get the grammar education" as the grammar was converted into a comp. Result was 5 years of absolute hell in a crap comp, being bullied every day, property stolen/damaged, assaulted, etc., and finally escaping after 5 years without a single O level. The ex-grammar was over-run by the kids from the nearby closed down sec-modern - teachers were having nervous breakdowns, the school was vandalised almost daily. Instead of bringing everyone "up" to grammar levels, it dragged everyone down to the failing crap level.

Once I'd escaped, I vowed I'd never send any kids of mine to a hell-hole like that, so, yes, I was in favour of grammars even before I had children, despite not going to one myself.

My sister in law couldn't believe how intransigent I was. She had been to a good comp and had done pretty well - nothing spectacular, but a good set of C/B grades at GCSE which meant she could do the further education she wanted and get a half decent career. She had her children first and was aghast when I suggested they look at the local grammar and have her kids take the 11+. She was convinced the local comp was just as good - fell for the lie of "bright kids do well anywhere" and because she hadn't experience the comp from hell, she couldn't imagine how bad they can be. So she sent her kids to the local comp, which was Ofsted rated very good. Big mistake, which she bitterly regrets now. Both kids crashed and burned. Both started with excellent results from primary school, both left at 15 with a string of D&E grade GCSEs after bullying, crap teachers, etc and daughter who self-harmed. She is now the first to tell me how right I was to be sceptical and really wishes she'd gone down the 11+ route.

So, no, it's not just those who benefitted themselves from a grammar education that are advocates of it. It's also the ones who suffered from crap comps.

borntobequiet · 12/02/2019 08:30

Poor grades and self harming aren't solely the preserve of comprehensives.
We regularly took people with poor grades (mostly boys) into our sixth form from the local grammars. They often improved in a spectacular fashion. The girls' grammar was known for a terrifying anorexia culture, with younger girls being bullied by older girls about how much they were eating. Children are children regardless of academic ability, can behave badly and make poor choices in any environment. Good schools, of whichever type, will take notice and try to mitigate these problems.

GaribaldiGirl · 12/02/2019 08:40

I see you point.

But if there was the option of the 11+ where your sister was it wasn’t a proper comp because presumably lots of the bright/aspirational pupils DID chose to go.

While grammars exist they will cream off the top sets of nearby comps.

Because lots of comps are rubbish doesn’t mean the PRINCIPLE is wrong.
They’re underfunded and there are certain societal pressures. And bullying happens in every kind of school and isn’t always perfectly dealt with.

BertrandRussell · 12/02/2019 08:48

If you genuinely think that’s what comprehensive/secondary modern schools are like then why would you condemn the overwhelming majority of children to them?

BertrandRussell · 12/02/2019 08:49

And “lots” of comprehensives aren’t rubbish. Some are.

MariaNovella · 12/02/2019 09:28

“Because lots of comps are rubbish doesn’t mean the PRINCIPLE is wrong. They’re underfunded...”

If you cannot afford your ideology, perhaps it’s time to look closely at the multiple hard trade offs that any education budget will be forced to make.

jonesmachine · 12/02/2019 09:42

The left like the principle of comprehensive schooling because it is a dam sight easier to promote their ideology of inclusion and indoctrination.

MariaNovella · 12/02/2019 09:44

The left like the principle of comprehensive schooling because it is a dam sight easier to promote their ideology of inclusion and indoctrination.

Too right. When all children are taught the same minuscule body of “knowledge” in comprehensive schools over generations, you can (in theory) dumb the population down entirely and control its thoughts and feelings.

Kazzyhoward · 12/02/2019 09:55

Too right. When all children are taught the same minuscule body of “knowledge” in comprehensive schools over generations, you can (in theory) dumb the population down entirely and control its thoughts and feelings.

That's the worrying problem. Years ago, my son's class did a short project on Concorde. The teacher made it out to be all doom & gloom - all about cost and pollution. Nothing about how well the English and French worked together as a joint project, nothing about the technological achievement, nothing about how you could see the New year in London and New York - it was all about enormous build cost, the noise pollution, how much fuel it used, cost of fuel, fuel pollution, etc. So unbelievably negative. It's not just hear-say from what DS told me, I saw the power point slides and the "fact"sheet handouts.

My son wrote up his "essay" about it and concentrated on the "good" things, and mentioned the Paris crash and 9-11 as the main reasons for its' withdrawal. He knew this because we'd actually been to the Manchester Concorde tour a few months earlier, so it was basically, DS's specialist subject at the time! Teacher awarded him a D grade with some pretty damning comments that he'd completely misunderstood the whole thing and that the crash and 9-11 were nothing to do with the withdrawal!

It's that kind of thing that really pisses me off about some teachers and the lefty controlled education system. It's nothing but indoctrination about their beliefs sometimes. They can be very blinkered and only want to teach their beliefs and thoughts.

jonesmachine · 12/02/2019 09:59

The principles of comprehensive education are either about 'diversity' or saving money which depends on whether you are right or left wing politically learning.

This does not mean it is wrong,to be passionate about diversity and integration if you are left leaning and require a means to promote your ideological beliefs to the next generation. However, to pretend as the left do its about educational outcomes is hogwash !

The right don't really care about educational outcomes of the repressed . However, they can at least see the economies of scale benefit to just having one school in a town.

I am agnostic whether we should have selective or comprehensive education, however i wish people would confirm their real intentions...

TeenTimesTwo · 12/02/2019 10:07

I think there should be a rule that if you apply for grammar school but don't pass, you have to go to the other state option, and you aren't allowed to go private instead.

(Not really, but it would be interesting to see what people then chose to do Smile ).

DioneTheDiabolist · 12/02/2019 10:18

I suspect not one person who loves the grammar school system failed the 11+ and went to a secondary modern. Or had a child who did.
Then you suspect wrong. Neither of my parents went to grammar. Of the 4 of their DC, 1 failed the 11+, 3 went to comps and 1 to grammar. My parents along with me and my siblings (one who taught in High school for 16 years) are all grammar system fans.

Tinty · 12/02/2019 10:21

I think there should be a rule that if you apply for grammar school but don't pass, you have to go to the other state option, and you aren't allowed to go private instead.

Or you could do what the Faith School in our town used to do. Which was if you didn't put the Faith School first on the School Admission Form then you couldn't go. Your only choice then was the really terrible secondary modern and the slightly better secondary modern if you failed the 11+.

Many 11+ passers parents put their names down for the Faith School because they were so afraid that they would end up in either of the other two schools. The Faith School had as many people who had passed the 11+ as the Grammar school. Very sneaky Hmm.

Luckily now you get the Grammar results before you have to fill in the Admissions form. The Faith Schools Grammar intake has now gone down and the secondary moderns have improved because the DC who passed but didn't get in (not enough places for all who pass), are now spread out amongst the schools.

All three schools, Faith and the two secondary moderns get similar results now.

BertrandRussell · 12/02/2019 10:28

I genuinely think that if you’re going to apply for a Faith school you shouldn’t be allowed to apply for non faith ones. Because, obviously, if faith is so important to you, you wouldn’t want a non faith school, would you? Grin

Tinty · 12/02/2019 10:43

None of the Parents who applied to the Faith school had actual Faith but they were really pleased to get their DC into the Faith School. My Dbro went to the Faith School We never when to church again after the first day he started and neither did any of his friends who went there.

I have an Uncle who is a Vicar in Cardiff. He gets very cross about the people who get their babies christened just for the party and to get them into school, his words Grin but don't come to church again.

Kazzyhoward · 12/02/2019 10:53

Then perhaps we should be looking at why faith schools are so popular - could it be because of better outcomes?

If the local comps produced better outcomes than faith schools, then people wouldn't pretend to be religious would they.

Rather than banning/blaming grammars and faith schools, why not look at what they do differently/better.

MariaNovella · 12/02/2019 10:55

I have an Uncle who is a Vicar in Cardiff. He gets very cross about the people who get their babies christened just for the party and to get them into school but don't come to church again.

Maybe he should ask himself a few more questions as to why faith schools are an attractive product but not his church services?

MariaNovella · 12/02/2019 10:57

KazzyHoward - your Concorde story is an excellent illustration of the issue with state education.

borntobequiet · 12/02/2019 11:01

Some interesting history re grammar schools.

The first comprehensives were introduced by a Conservative government. (Those of us who support them aren't all lefties. I'm pretty centre ground myself, politically.)
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/6712177.stm

BertrandRussell · 12/02/2019 11:08

“Rather than banning/blaming grammars and faith schools, why not look at what they do differently/better.“

That’s easy. They select. Of course you’re going to get better headline exam results if you select.

MariaNovella · 12/02/2019 11:08

Selection is not the only driver of better performance in education.

BertrandRussell · 12/02/2019 11:10

It is the main driver of good headline results for a school. Which is how many people judge a school.

Tinty · 12/02/2019 11:11

Then perhaps we should be looking at why faith schools are so popular - could it be because of better outcomes?

As I said our local Faith school had better outcomes, 30 years ago when it used to insist that parents put it first (they also knew which DC had taken the 11+ as they went to Faith Primary schools), and if you didn't put it first you didn't get in. They got a lot of DC who passed or just failed, so a high achieving cohort.

Then the Grammar schools (or Education Dept?) changed the system so that parents knew if their DC had passed before the school admissions end date. Over time the parents stopped sending their DC to the Faith school and over the last 30 years it has gone from being just below the Grammar school in results and way above the other two secondary schools to at the exact same level, all three schools now get about the same results.

The Faith school in our area was stopped from having only DC of Faith and made to take catchment DC also, as its catchment encompasses a very deprived area, a lot more DC get in from the catchment than did previously and the intake is now the same as the other schools.

Tinty · 12/02/2019 11:15

Maybe he should ask himself a few more questions as to why faith schools are an attractive product but not his church services?

He has a very full church with many regular churchgoers, but most of them are older. All the people baptising their DC are younger. Many many people do not have Faith these days, I don't think that the Vicars can be blamed for the decline in uptake of Faith. Many people believe in Science rather than God.

Kazzyhoward · 12/02/2019 11:16

Of course you’re going to get better headline exam results if you select.

Faith schools select by church attendance, not academic ability, so how does that lead to better results? I can understand the grammar intake being more academic leading to better exam results, but don't follow the same logic applying to faith schools.