Things you wished you had known about the 11 plus process

[Goposie]

For me, that the numbers applying are crazy and the sheer odds stacked against getting in.

The thing is, I genuinely think that the grammar school/secondary modern system is not the best fit for any child. Within that system either school might be the least worst option. But the actual system is fatally flawed and bad for everyone.

The viewpoint that selection means poor schools for those not selected may be right for some geographical areas. It is not to do with selection per se though but the socioeconomic profile and teaching / SLT profile. That is also true for poorer comprehensives in areas without selection.

This applies to secondary up to GCSEs and to sixth form provision.

And as I said in PP, those entering grammar schools selection are increasingly certain Asian EMs. So the selection model appears to working for them.

Bertand i just fundamentally disagree with you. Ds's superselective fits him like a glove. He is highly academic, argumentative and high energy. In his school he has found his niche. There simply wouldnt be enough dcs with that profile in an average sized comp. I dont think he would be pushed as hard in a top set of a year group of 120

"Uniform can, of course be a very effective means of backdoor selection......"

@BertrandRussell

I agree but weirdly in my area the Comp Uniform is more expensive than the Grammar. Both wear same colour blazer, same colour skirts/trousers, one wears a different colour shirt. Grammar standard white easy to buy anywhere, Comp different not so easy to buy. Also the Comp blazer is more expensive by about £5, I don't know why as they both come from the same uniform supplier.

"The thing is, I genuinely think that the grammar school/secondary modern system is not the best fit for any child. Within that system either school might be the least worst option. But the actual system is fatally flawed and bad for everyone."

This is true, one of the many reasons my (secondary modern) was such a terrible school, when I went 14% of children got 5 GCSE (equivalent) at grade C and above. It was an enormous school there was 240 people in my year, 14% of that amount of children is a terrible statistic.

My DD had the choice of an outstanding Comp or Grammar School, I still choose for her to do the 11 plus because I believe that this is the better school for her, even though my DS went to the local comp and had a really good time and good education, my DD is not an identikit copy of her brother and different things are important to her.

She actually wanted to go to the Comp with her friends. She also wanted to go to the Grammar School because she liked it when we went to the open days.

I gave her the choice, she choose the Grammar.

Where we are the Grammar is much more ethnically diverse and she has learnt more about different religions and cultures etc, than she would have if she had gone to the local comp, which is almost exclusively white british.

She also has another set of wonderful friends that she would never have met if she had gone to the comp which is full of all the same children she has spent the last 11 years with. It is a smallish area and out of the 180 dc in her year at the comp, she probably didn't know about 30 of them.

“The viewpoint that selection means poor schools for those not selected may be right for some geographical areas.“

I don’t think it does mean automatically poor schools. The secondary modern my ds went to was a good school. But it was a school that, by definition, had practically all the children with disadvantaged backgrounds and challenging families. It is perceived as a lesser school in the area, and the children carry the “stigma” for want of a better word from allocation day. The grammar school, by contrast has practically no disadvantaged children, very few children with additional needs or challenging behaviour and the aura of success. That is what I mean by the system being bad for everyone. It is bad for children to be told they are failures at 10. It is also bad for them to be told they are “special” and better than their classmates.

“Bertand i just fundamentally disagree with you. Ds's superselective fits him like a glove”

As i’ve said, I can see the argument for superselectives. I’m not sure I agree with it, but of course I can see it. And superselectives have a significantly smaller impact on the community than “ordinary” grammars.

I live in a grammar area and I love it. I would hate to have no choice in where my children attend secondary. As it was I was able to choose the best fit for my SEN, FSM DS, just as my folks were able to choose the best fit for me and my siblings.

But then I don't know anyone who considers a child a failure because of the school they attend, how they did in their 11+ or even if they did the 11+ at all.

Like Bert I live in Kent. Where I live we have what is effectively a tripartite system. We have the grammars and the comps (I can see the argument for them actually being secondary moderns but I’m going to refer to them as comps) however the biggest, best performing, closest to us and most sought after comp is impossible to get into unless you come from a faith family, were baptised by a certain age and have been attending church at least two weeks out every three.

So you actually have the grammars, the back door selective religious comp, then the other two comps for everyone else. Like Bert I don’t agree with the system, but have a child who will be starting grammar in September. Part of the reason for having my child take the 11 plus was because entry to the local comp is barred to us because we are not church goers. Our top choice for her had she not passed is a school which is a true secondary modern.

I support the idea of a true comprehensive system, but to achieve that not just grammars need to be scrapped but back door selection religious state schools too.

“I can see the argument for them actually being secondary moderns but I’m going to refer to them as comps”

Why? They aren’t and it makes for confusion.

Because that’s what they call themselves. If people know where I’m talking about and I start referring to St Leafy’s Secondary Modern and its actually called St Leafy’s Comprehensive it’d just cause confusion.

But it suggests that there is s compoehensive option in Kent. There isn’t.

I thought Secondary Moderns didn't exist anymore.

Okay, I take your point but in real life absolutely no one I know refers to these schools as secondary moderns. If I did so in conversation with other parents they’d all swiftly correct me or be confused as to where I was talking about.

In Kent they are usually referred to as High Schools. I think people call them secondary modern schools on here because most people don’t live in selective areas so won’t understand high school.

I am amazed that someone would actually walk away from a grammar school to make a point when they could have changed the system from the inside. Demonstrations like that never work! No one cares. You don’t know what it is like to have a child at a grammar school so no one will listen to you, it’s all hearsay and bitterness from non grammar parents.

The numbers don’t show the true story, the lives and hearts of those families. For instance the numbers show that your children didn’t get in, they failed the test. That is not the full story but it’s all the numbers show. We don’t have time to trawl through the applications and find the bleeding hearts. We don’t actually care. We want the students who have been through the system as bestcthey can.

Catch, I realise that you were well intentioned but it was a foolish thing to do. These dramatic gestures mean nothing in the real world when you are one question away from getting in, from fitting in to a particular university. They look for reasons not to accept students because they are oversubscribed. Up against a grammar school pupil, everything else being equal, and you’re out unless you go in on the “not as good a school so disadvantaged” ticket and then you are taking a place away from a truly disadvantaged youngster.

I suppose it will be a cute story to tell in an interview but my old college would smile and nod and turn your child down for being a potential troublemaker. You can’t change the world from your level, with a couple of kids, one who may get into uni, who purposefully made a choice that the old guard system thinks ridiculous.

My post was to cantkeepaway, not catch.

Taipei-that post is utter, utter bollocks. Universities do not admit like that.

Cantkeepaway, After reading your comment about the colour of students at Oxbridge, I assume you will not be applying to such colleges leaving a potential space for someone a different colour than your child.

Will your decision be made on skin colour, background of students etc. alone rather than the more usual course content?

BertrandRussell Wed 06-Feb-19 23:42:32

I can’t remember when I last saw a secondary school with a sweatshirt......

www.thornden.hants.sch.uk/uniform

One of the best comprehensives in Hampshire.

I know many who share Cantkeepaway's philosophy. My GP's kids go to the local comp (no doubt he could afford private). Another dad worked in a private (could have got reduced fees) but kids went to local comp and did exceedingly well there. There are also many many others I could think of. They believe in supporting their local school. Their kids are doing fine and are not being sacrificed for the sake of a dramatic gesture. Their parents believe in a comprehensive education system.

I am in an 11+ area, I hate it. There is no choice for parents to make its 1 grammar or 1 comp. No best fit for your child, no knowing they will go with their mates.
It makes me so sad, my eldest is already feeling pressured (despite my best efforts to keep it, easy breezy!) and we are already having tears about it.
They are clever, but clever on its own doesn't pass the 11+. It is so bloody hard to know what to do. I want to give them the choice between the two schools (id like to offer more choice but i can't!) but the only way to do that is to embark on tutoring etc. But being honest the tears make me wonder if grammar is for them.

It is disingenuous to call the secondary schools which are neither grammat schools not comprehensives “secondary moderns”. I can assure you that Kent High Schools are nothing like the old secondary moderns!

“It is disingenuous to call the secondary schools which are neither grammat schools not comprehensives “secondary moderns”. I can assure you that Kent High Schools are nothing like the old secondary moderns!”

In real life I call them High Schools, because that’s what most selective Kent secondary schools are called. But that is misleading to non Kent people. Secondary Modern is the nearest short hand.

Greentent
My GP's kids go to the local comp (no doubt he could afford private). Unlikely nowadays for multiple DCs if a single earner.
Anyway since the DCs did well, those comprehensives are satisfactory and a good fit for their DCs when all factors are taken into consideration.
Your examples do not show what their stance would be if the school options were poor and compensation outside was not feasible.
Nor whether they (for altruism and fairness) would have kept heir DCs in a sixth form that was a poorer fit for their DCs’s academic options.