Independent or grammar?

[forestfriends]

Hi all, I would appreciate some thoughts on selective future schools for our children. I'm not looking for opinions on non-selective state schools or state v independent so with respect please keep those for another thread.

We currently have one DC in Y2 and one in Pre-school so they're both young and we have time to consider some future options.
Both are at independent school and I'm getting really frustrated by the ever increasing fees, decreasing days in the school calendar and amount of homework for the one in Y2... this experience is shared by parents of older children in the school and at other schools (SW London).

Whilst I gladly recognise the work the children do in school time, I feel like the holidays are becoming a joke (they're not even back yet) and the work is increasingly being overseen by parents and tutors at home which increases pressure on the children and means we get less proportionately from the school than we are paying for.

The schools get superb grades but I'm really falling out of love with the system and am questioning whether it will work for us as a family in the future due to the huge level of input that seems to be required from families in so many ways, not least almost 22 weeks of holidays a year. Both DH and I want to be able to support our kids in their academic and non-academic lives, but likewise we both want to sustain careers (I was at home until recently, now part time from home and am finding it impossible to be everything to everyone all the time), we also want to be able to enjoy time as a family without having to constantly worry about homework and tests and hot housing and what everyone else is doing to get ahead. FWIW, for DC1 I don't have too many concerns about ability re 11+ at this age, no reason to think it's not achievable with effort.

For those who have experience with grammar and independent school systems (and recognising every school is different), please can you share what you thought the pros, cons and expectations are?

We would gladly move to an area with grammars if offered a place. We aren't focusing on the money as the cost of a move would net out some of the savings in school fees anyway. It's more about finding the right balance for us all.

Thanks for your help

I’d have thought many of the things on the list are just things most parents would naturally do, without having to think ‘do I really want to put in that level of effort’
Which in particular strikes you as unusual or things you wouldn’t have considered or wanted?
Perhaps my view is warped? There were other things I could have listed but didn’t as I’d have put them in the category of helicopter micro management and knew we didn’t want to talk about that level of engagement, but most of the parents I know are doing most of the things on that list, and I’d say most of it feels very natural to most of them and not things that need serious consideration as to whether they do or not.....but perhaps this is unusual and your view/approach more common amongst families with children who achieve well - and I think that’s the type of family we’re talking about isn’t it.....although of course I acknowledge parents can do all these things and children don’t achieve well or that children achieve well with limited input, but I’m thinking more of typically I suppose.

And looking at the list again, I’d think many of the things are about attitudes rather than action, so I would be very interested in how many and which ones you’d never do/consider.....if you’re up for further engagement about this, of course. I find it fascinating.

That’s a good list Wombat and like you these things would’ve come naturally to me and I don’t regard them as ‘ input ‘ as such . Apart from preschool I didn’t read to my DD but the house did and does have loads of books . I also kept books from my own childhood and passed them on .

Not warped Wombat! You're being a bit harsh on yourself! I would say that communities of parents tend to feel pressure to do what the other parents do (if it's more than they themselves are doing), so are influenced by that. I also think it's true that I felt heavily circumscribed in what I could do by overwhelming myself slightly in terms of number of DC. Entirely self inflicted of course and with an inevitable impact on the DC, not all of it positive. The rural nature of where we live and limited transport links also has a significant effect and lots of cultural opportunities just aren't there. Thus, going down your list:

• not much talking about ideas in a conscious way (although lots of talking!).
• very limited clubs and activities outside school although school based lunchtime clubs obviously fine.
• no support of school work as such with discussion, visits, books.
• trips yes; matches when I could but not always.
• DC did no university Open Days except the school run Oxford one. I also went to Durham in two batches casually (DD1, DD2, DD3 then DS2, DS3, DS4). But nowhere else.
• contact with school for significant problems never required. But had it been absolutely necessary then I'd have contacted school to discuss. I think less is more on that front.
• lack of space has been an issue for the DC but the upshot is that they do concentrate very well around others and can ignore noise. Difficult for them though esp at exam times.
• some attendance at sports things in primary (parents don't attend at our secondary) and other events in secondary (eg Mock Trial/ plays) but always incomplete. When I could go, I did but esp in the early days I often couldn't. Music (because of cost) sadly took a complete hit.
• I haven't helped with homework at all, ever.

Oh dear, your list has made me feel very bad no I've written down how little I've done or provided. But with my time over and not a silly number of DC I still would only contact school in extremis (while going to the annual parents' meetings and reading reports). I also still wouldn't help with homework in any way. And I would definitely add in music - no music is bad.

I wouldn't have got into that detail if you hadn't asked Wombat but you did, so I did!

Wombat- your list looks like normal family life to me. The fact that others don’t see or accept that this is the sort of thing that gives privileged/middle class children a huge educational advantage is part of the problem. The “I don’t do anything - they just get on with it” attitude. Yes, they just get on with it. In a house with books, and enough to eat and warmth and parents who have the time, the emotional and physical energy and the inclination to engage with them. With no violence, and the expectation, spoken and unspoken,that they will go to school and do well. Many, many children have none of these things.

Bertrand I agree that very serious domestic violence limits the ability to do plenty of these things. Probably not something which tends to get posted on middle class educational threads however.

I notice you also say parents in the plural Bertrand. Being a single parent even in the absence of domestic violence also limits all these other things 'normal' parents can do. There are a great many single parents out there. I do find an unworldliness about you sometimes!

BetrandRussell you do seem to have a propensity for posting the blindingly obvious as though it was something you yourself had just discovered

“BetrandRussell you do seem to have a propensity for posting the blindingly obvious as though it was something you yourself had just discovered”

I agree. It’s deeply depressing that I have to, isn’t it?

You really don't have to.

Perhaps you're just one of those people who always underestimates the people you're talking to?

that I have to
Perhaps more ‘I feel the need to’. And you don’t, honestly, unless it helps you deal with it.

I don’t have to point out to others here the effects of deprivation, famines, natural disasters, wars. It would be condescending and sanctimonious.

Well Goodbye, from what you say, I think you do a lot more than you might think - most of the things are things you have engaged with. Is it a case of you like the idea that you haven’t and your kids did it all themselves and are very different to the average middle class family, but in actual fact you’re more similar than you think apart from having more kids - not saying this to be confrontational but just wondering.

And yes loads of kids don’t get hardly anything on the list. And as well as all these (probably) positive inputs, there’s lots which can hold people back or make parenting more difficult for some than others. Yes, growing up with domestic violence won’t help and be a clear detriment, as will growing up in a family with addictions and all that entails or serious mental health issues, or chronic financial instability - all pressures which also impact children. Living in certain areas where aspiration is low or schools low performing won’t help either. Whether growing up with a single parent is negative I think depends very much. For some it will mean massive financial pressure and a parent being emotionally stretched and time stretched .....but lots of couples have one parent who is barely there and where it is just 1 parent who really engages, or a scenario where 1 parent is a negative impact on the family and in many ways the other parent would be able to get on better and parent more effectively if their time and energy wasn’t hVing to be devoted to avoiding and living with domestic violence and worries about the consequences of addiction.

Clearly some children are much luckier than others in lots of respects!

No I disagree entirely Wombat. I'm afraid I find that somewhat trite. I don't have any need to big up my DCs' achievements, such as they are. If anything it's politic to dumb them down because a few people can get shirty. It's quite offensive to suggest actually, especially since my DC have had to deal with stuff which shouldn't have come their way, but I'm sure you're bright enough for me not to have to spell that out. I've been a single mother of eight for less time than would have been beneficial to the DC. I'd prefer not to pursue that conversation further however.

The key things which I don't do are contact school over issues or have any input whatsoever into homework and I don't think either are an especially good thing to do. I've also been very flaky on facilitating extra curricular things. I have always been interested though, just short on time and often distracted.

Short on time since the eight DC lived exclusively with me.

Okay, I’m not familiar with you or your situation. I only picked up on the last few posts that you have 8 children and hadn’t realised you are a single parent or the things you allude to.

In the end, we all parent as we choose and as circumstances allow us to. It’s easy to think one way is best and another not. Whilst there clearly will be things which are good and other things which aren’t, sometimes we don’t have full control and also there are lots of shades of grey where there is plenty of scope for interpretation.

There's no reason why you should be Wombat, I not posted previously about my domestic situation. But it's wise not to post in a thoughtless way that presupposes everyone here is a middle class mother in a blissfully content marital situation able to provide in every way for their DC and only intent on giving their DCs' achievements a puff. Life is rather bigger than that.

Indeed, which is why I said that it isn’t clear cut whether being in a couple or not is a positive thing for parenting and that it can be and sometimes it’s preferable not to be, followed by mention of various scenarios which someone might find themselves in with a partner, meaning they and their children might be better off without the other parent.

Especially as children get older there are more and more people parenting alone. I’m sure you know the challenges that brings, but it seems to me that lots of people do a great job and as well or better than those who are still with the children’s dad.

It certainly isn’t necessary to be middle class to support your children well or to have significant input if you choose to. Middle class might not always equate more to more money but often does and having money can mean you have access to more opportunities and can solve some potential problems by throwing money at them, which might not be so easy if money is tight. I think of some of the immigrant or second generation immigrant families which don’t always have lots of cash but significant aspiration for their children. Some might say a lot of helicoptering or too much control sometimes goes on, but often those children are very successful and it shows it’s not just a middle class thing.

I guess historically the upper middle classes and recently upper classes too have sent their kids to boarding schools. Perhaps they have certainly historically been pretty hands off, but if you’ve paid a nanny and then a school to sort everything, perhaps you can afford to be hands off, and knowing privilege is behind you and them is a great reassurer against the fears of the middle class of failure.

Perhaps all this ‘over-parenting’ as some might call it is all just a sign of fear and lack of confidence, and trying to shore up the future and provide more certainty and control. Perhaps some people just feel this fear and need certainty more than others, whilst others are more willing to go with the flow and let what will be, be. If you’ve had hard phases in your life, it can either make you decide that a lot of things people get her up about are not worth worrying about and give some perspective and ability to step away, or it might work the other way and make you keener to control everything.

I’d think most parents at Grammars and Independents (and I’m not saying all) feel an element of this fear and uncertainty for the future of their children, in what they see as a competitive world. Part of choosing these schools, or the outstanding Comp(if you have the choice) is mitigating these fears, as is a lot of the parental input.

But these things are not blindingly obvious to vast numbers of people both IRL and on mn. They do need pointing out. I find there is a general assumption that children have enough to eat and a bed to sleep in and so on. I've worked in education for my whole career. Even some head teachers don't realise these things. There is a great tendency in life to think that the life you have had is the norm across society.

It’s not blindingly obvious. If it was, we wouldn’t have endless threads on here where posters assert that, for example, that selection at 10 is perfectly fair because “anyone” can show their child how to master the non verbal reasoning. Or that all children have an equal chance of passing because it’s a test of innate intelligence. Or that church attendance based admissions criteria are perfectly fair because “anyone” can take their child to church.

I agree that it's not blindingly obvious. There are lots of people in all social groups who can't access top quality education and also lots of people who can't see that not everyone has the same opportunities.

There certainly are people who are not middle class who are very interested in education and highly engaged with their children's education and who have as sharp elbows as the middle classes often do. Perhaps if you're aspirational and from a background where the opportunities you want for your children weren't available to you, then your elbows become a bit sharper still and you value even more the things that those who had them as children themselves almost take for granted.

And we should recognise that for lots of children, there isn't just a lack of aspiration, but active desire to not let the children move out of the norm of that family. And beyond that, lots don't have 3 meals a day, a safe environment to live or basics like a coat in winter, regular heating or sanitary protection or shoes without holes,never mind access to swimming lessons, a quiet place to work at home and parents who are thinking ahead to the next stage of education and smoothing the way.

There absolutely isn't a level playing field. Pupil premium priority into certain schools aims to recognise that a little bit, but probably the families that most need that priority and woukd benefit from it, dont apply for all kinds of reasons which lots of people would struggle to understand when 'surely all you have to do is to fill in the form'.

As an example, I know a family where there are 3 kids. The father hasn't worked for the last 6 years and intermittently worked before that. He doesn't like the work he can get and has calculated that although T hey would be better off if he worked it's not enough to make it worthwhile. The mother is a fairly recent immigrant who is a real self-starter who has gone to college to get the qualifications to allow her to higher level work in a care home and she works lots of hours. The kids would have qualified to get into the local outstanding Church school thorough mothers attendance. However, the kid didn't get a place becaue the family didn't fill in the extra supplementary form which was necessary to get the Vicar's reference which was necessary for a place. So the kid went to their local school which is in special measures and which the father said 'probably suits us more anyway than being with those poshos' . Here was a case of a mother having some aspiration (which not everyone does to begin with) and also actually meeting the criteria to get into the school, but just not having the knowledge to make it happen. Did she not read the admissions arrangements? Did she not understand them? It was probably a bit of both. The Father certainly would have had no idea of the deadlines or even had applying in his radar at all. It certainly is a different country and we should acknowledge it.

"Not for the likes of us" is still a big problem. Even when children can get a good education, it gets in the way of making good post 18 choices. The best advice often comes from informed parents and if parents do not help investigate the options or believe everywhere is the same, then children aspire to less than they should.

That even seems to come into play at independent schools. DD visited her old one recently to talk about careers in law and help them prep for an advocacy competition. She was rather taken aback at the possible choices of university for some of the girls who aspired to be baristers. It seemed no-one had looked up the possibility of achieving that career goal from their chosen universities. Even paying £35,000 plus a year does not guarantee good advice (except from DD of course!)

I assisted my children when they were primary age and then I was very hands off as they boarded from 11. However, in boarding schools there are still helicopter parents - believe me! Their children must have the best drama parts, be in certain rooms in the dorms etc and so it goes on! It always surprised me how many parents paid to join the school community and then sought to change it for their own advantage or that of their DD and trample over everyone else.