Independent or grammar?

[forestfriends]

Hi all, I would appreciate some thoughts on selective future schools for our children. I'm not looking for opinions on non-selective state schools or state v independent so with respect please keep those for another thread.

We currently have one DC in Y2 and one in Pre-school so they're both young and we have time to consider some future options.
Both are at independent school and I'm getting really frustrated by the ever increasing fees, decreasing days in the school calendar and amount of homework for the one in Y2... this experience is shared by parents of older children in the school and at other schools (SW London).

Whilst I gladly recognise the work the children do in school time, I feel like the holidays are becoming a joke (they're not even back yet) and the work is increasingly being overseen by parents and tutors at home which increases pressure on the children and means we get less proportionately from the school than we are paying for.

The schools get superb grades but I'm really falling out of love with the system and am questioning whether it will work for us as a family in the future due to the huge level of input that seems to be required from families in so many ways, not least almost 22 weeks of holidays a year. Both DH and I want to be able to support our kids in their academic and non-academic lives, but likewise we both want to sustain careers (I was at home until recently, now part time from home and am finding it impossible to be everything to everyone all the time), we also want to be able to enjoy time as a family without having to constantly worry about homework and tests and hot housing and what everyone else is doing to get ahead. FWIW, for DC1 I don't have too many concerns about ability re 11+ at this age, no reason to think it's not achievable with effort.

For those who have experience with grammar and independent school systems (and recognising every school is different), please can you share what you thought the pros, cons and expectations are?

We would gladly move to an area with grammars if offered a place. We aren't focusing on the money as the cost of a move would net out some of the savings in school fees anyway. It's more about finding the right balance for us all.

Thanks for your help

Would the Essex Grammars work for you? Chelmsford and Colchester are both very high achieving and I believe their catchements are UK wide. However getting in can be challenging. Rumour is that the Southend Grammars are slightly easier to access.

We had neighbours who moved to N Essex/S SUffolk after their DC passed the 11 plus and got a place. There are some good indies depending on which bit of Essex/Suffolk you look at.
Easy access to the City via Liverpool Street.

Bertrand this isn't about particular DC but it does always amuse me that you never flip the question and ask whether my DC might have done well precisely because I didn't ever do heavy duty educational input. I mean, do you suppose I thought, as each emerged from the womb, oh that little person looks like a super selective kid so I might as well take advantage and indulge my inner laziness/ slack off on the parenting front? Or do you just think it a huge coincidence that they all did ok
in spite of rather than because of my [lack of] input? I think the answer is pretty obvious, don't you? Of course it does also fail to validate the more aggressive parenting style advocated so often on these threads, but there we go. Getting them to read is the key thing and after that I reckon it's best to just let them go.

TTT I failed quite a few of your questions including the one about special needs, although your response is to glibly say my DC are lucky. I'm not completely convinced that my DD really feels that lucky not to be able to hear.

Daisymay aren't the Southend grammars dire?

CRGS is fantastic though. And CCHS is good too. Why go to a poor or middling grammar over a good comp?

Goodbye, I worked in Chelmsford for a while. The Chelmsford and Colchester grammars were very highly rated, especially Colchester, and regarded às better than Southend but I didn't think Southend were dire. Kids who went there appeared to do well. And there are some good comprehensives in Mid and North Essex.

goodbye Given there are countless children up and down the country whose parents give as little input as you, who don't succeed in getting into super selectives / Oxbridge. yes I do think your children are lucky. They clearly have the nature (intellect and organisation) that has let them thrive without needing your guidance / tangible support. Of course your nurture will have helped but most children will not achieve nearly so well, whether with parental input, or not.

Your list was very silly TTT and the question about special needs was not ok - it was only asked of me because you assumed the wrong answer.

My response would be that there are DC up and down the country whose parents have massive input, micro manage their educational lives and go to expensive schools and still do seriously badly. It's the same argument as: 'Well my DC were tutored for grammar since Y4 and still didn't get in , so the level of competition is insane'.

False premises flood MN.

I didn't ask about special needs, I asked about organisational issues. Because children with organisational issues generally need more support organising themselves, their homework, their revision, and might well have difficulty writing coherent essays. It was a totally fair question.

Your kids are inherently bright. Your parenting has evolved with your children's abilities.
I would love to be more hands off than I am, but my children need more support in order to succeed.
I'm not telling you you are wrong to not be more involved with your kids, it obviously worked well. Please don't keep coming on to threads telling parents who support their children they are doing it all wrong.

had a child with dyspraxia or other organisational issues

Yes, fair point. I took dyspraxia to mean all spLDs as I suppose I would have wondered why dyspraxia should be singled out for special input but the answer is still yes, and in fact the same DD with the hearing issues had dyspraxia and was extremely disorganised early one in school. Another DC has other spLDs and a third has one too, but unrecognised until late.

Please don't keep coming on to threads telling parents who support their children they are doing it all wrong.

TTT I'm not. What I am doing, with respect, is to defend myself against Wombat's rather insulting assertion that parents who don't have big inputs are disinterested:

Well, the reality is that interested parents do have big inputs.

I hope that's ok.

Also, perhaps some DC do need additional parental support but in plenty of cases it's very obviously unnecessary and in a good number of other cases it will actually do harm, by creating a sense of imposed pressure. So I think that's a perfectly valid point to make, especially coming from so many years of experience in a super selective environment where some parents do actually seriously oppress their DC, even though it's likely to be with the best of intentions. I've seen it time and time again.

I wouldn’t regard myself as ever having a big input or arguably any input into my kids schoolwork . DD has always done her own homework , had decent reports and never a bad word at parents evening . It’s always been my assumption therefore that no additional input from me is required or indeed necessary. That’s what I pay school fees for . No doubt some interested parents do have big inputs but absence of this does not correlate in all cases with being disinterested . It’s all about finding the right school for your particular child where they will flourish and in this some parents will have more choices available to them .

bengalcat it's clear from Wombat's post that she doesn't see 'big input' correlating to the absence of choice in terms of schools available to the parent.

And all Kent grammar schools have catchment areas- even the super selectives. If two applicants both get top marks in the test and there is only one place left the one who lives nearer gets it.

Not necessarily the case. Some give priority to pupil premium students for example and they go to the top of the list, as long as they have passed the test.

And all schools have LAC (including adopted children) as first priority.

And those on EHCPs

OP - be very careful with grammars as you would with any other school. One super selective quite near me has gone through about 5 Headteachers in as many years and has quite a lot of negative press; another has had a dreadful report written about their Headteacher who has been pushed out over some illegal procedures designed to inflate grades, and I expect there will be a ripple effect for several years in both of these schools. But on paper and on websites they both look fabulous.

Just saying, like for any school, to do your homework really carefully. All that glitters etc.

I have also seen the independent brigade reluctant to criticse their school as it might take off the gloss. I saw swathes at DD’s sought after independent school head to tutors and still see them go, the tutor living just round the corner for us and girls with this school’s uniform getting out of 4x4s in repeated droves to get help as the maths teacher isn’t much use but the parents are paying and it is a sought after school so they don’t want to admit it.

Yes DD is probably at one of the grammars Cauliflower describes but it has learnt lots of lessons and is now benefiting from positive management and it certainly doesn’t glitter - the drains are shot to pieces (very very bad in an all girls school!) and a super selective means parents are often distant in more ways than one.

@goodbyestranger
Yes of course your children were lucky (genetically and in terms of motivation, schools, teachers etc). Most children whose parents don't have a huge input into their education don't excel. (I'm not say you were wrong to leave them to it - it was obviously the best idea in their case it's just slightly ridiculous to claim that was the reason they excelled.)

My point is that parents are not uninterested simply because they don't have a 'big input' (Wombat). I'm not making any other claims whatsoever, so it's slightly ridiculous of you, AllMYSS, to say that I'm making any claims as to why my DC excelled (in fact I haven't even made any claims they excelled!).

Perhaps I can clarify. My points about input were directly to the Op and a response to what she’d said in her initial and later posts. I got the impression that she felt she was being asked to do too much by the Prep school - the holidays had become longer, which she found difficult with work, plus she seemed to feel the parental input expected with homework etc and other stuff was too much, especially as she was paying. She suggested that if such input was needed she’d rather not pay and have a free state education.
I guess I was trying to say that it’s not a case of you pay and then you can back off and leave it the school to sort everything out, although I acknowledged that in Boarding there will be more of that. I was merely pointing out that often parents of children in independents have lots of input and possibly more than many state school children’s (not all, before anyone objects to that). Often the opportunities independents offer require parental input and support to fully benefit from them - so being in a team and playing every Saturday requires parents to get you to school and pick you up and most won’t be in walking distance. That’s just one example and isn’t particularly about academic input and support although a lot of that will go on too. When I said that interested parents have big input, I meant in the broadest sense - someone gave a list asking about things like taking to museums - well yes, it is things like that - so when dinosaurs are studied at school your family go on a day out to the Natural History Museum. When a topic is studied you buy a book for the child about it. You chat at the table about the topic - ie you are interested and engage. Some people might be more hands off than others and some might be so busy that they have no idea what their kids are up to at school or out of it and never ask - they couldn’t really be called very interested and those parents exist in all schools as do helicopter parents who micro manage. All I was saying is that the Op probably needs to expect to engage whichever type of school their child goes too, and some schools will provide less opportunities and support than some independents (and I know some Grammar parents like to claim their kids receive absolutely everything the same as independents) meaning even more input might be needed if you want to ensue access to all opportunities.

Op clearly was feeling she wasn’t getting value for money and having to do more than she expected herself. I can’t comment on that school as I don’t know anything about it, but I’d say most parents at independents pay up their fees and receive what the school has to offer AND still expect to have a reasonable input too - some might be surprised about it like Op to start with (or not) but most realise this is entirely normal and usual for parents in these schools. Of course isn’t it a key reason why these children do well - they are well supported from home. And yes I know that applies to many children in state schools too, who many of whom also do really well or better than many kids from independents. Although some children will do well with little little input (and the debate on this thread about this isn’t really being led by a parent who has neglected to show interest, just not been heavily involved in the detail of the academics, but I’m sure has created a supportive environment which involves all kind of thing many children lack) we all know that many children who poorly do poorly partly because of that lack of support.

I’m sure Op is interested and has input. Being on here and thinking about best options shows interest in itself. She might however think more about the input she’s being asked to put in by school and if that’s really going to reduce, or if it’s actually something that’s important and worth it and if actually good schools expect that parental input and it’s the input from both school and home that leads to success.

Wombat then this is fine. The OP can be interested with minimum time investment and get on with work/ life etc and not feel ground down in any way. Provided that she's interested as opposed to uninterested. But very little time is required, just the mental element of being interested.

I’m sure has created a supportive environment which involves all kind of thing many children lack It's gratifying that you're sure - and you may be correct (I'm not sure!) - but perhaps you could clarify that sentence too?!

Daisymay aren't the Southend grammars dire?

Yep, absolute crap. It never ceases to amaze me that our DC, having attended all but WHSB between them, have retained their ability to string more than a couple of sentences together.

I feel particularly sorry for the way-OOC kids, though, whose parents are forced to bus them miles and miles to slum it down here because they didn't get into somewhere more desirable.

Most children whose parents don't have a huge input into their education don't excel.
Is this true? I observe that DCs with the same eventual outcomes at universities and beyond whether they had a stressed high input London type education or a much more laid back one elsewhere.

I also don’t think it was true for our generation for whom parents were generally hands off anyway (although reading books to their DCs and conversations rather than social media were the norm).

Of course parents with DCs at poor schools or with SEN understandably have to be more involved.

Okay, so what do I assume you and many others probably provide, which makes a difference and many children lack?

• valuing of education and of school
• a sense that it’s okay and good to do well
• reading to children from very young and supporting them in their own reading, through things like lots of books in the house
• talking about ideas
• allowing them to go to clubs and activities (paying and chauffeuring esp when younger)
• being supportive of school policies about things like discipline or not consistently challenging and undermining and encouraging the children to undermine things like uniform, homework, discipline policies
• supporting school work with discussion, visits, books etc
• allowing children to fully access school opportunities - paying for trips, ferrying to matches or other school related activities which would be so much more difficult without
• being supportive about the idea of A Levels if that’s appropriate and ditto university
• providing practical and financial help to attend university open days and apply through ucas
• if needed, contacting teachers about issues which need resolving and are creating significant problems
• providing a home where there is space to work and do homework
• supporting through attendance at some/many plays, music performances, sports matches or other that child involved in and/or showing genuine interest in these
• providing kit/materials needed for these activities
• providing help with homework as needed/requested
• being interested in school choice and getting informed about options available
• being willing to engage with school and to carry out things asked of by school, such as listening to child read etc

-if entrance exams are needed, becoming informed about process and seeing what is needed in order to have a reasonable chance

• being encouraging about child’s ability to make progress and creating an atmosphere where self belief is possible
• creating opportunities for growing independence

These are just those that pop into my mind now and many of them could take many forms. I can say I’ve known children and adults who had very few of the things on the list. I can think of one I know at uni who was an amazingly clever girl who had achieved really against the odds - her parents had thought uni wasn’t for the likes of them and wouldn’t pay for her ucas fee and a kind neighbour paid it for her and her train fare to the interview, but without those she probably wouldn’t have gone at 18. And sadly lots of people lack these parental inputs and it has an impact.

Wombat you've taken a lot of time to type that reply so it seems churlish not to respond before I go off to other things. But frankly it's an enormous list which to my mind equates to a very, very big input and goes way beyond anything I've done, do, am able to have done or do in some respects or (fortunately) think it's necessary to do.

I wasn't going to mention the parenting of the previous generation but why do you suppose a different approach is required, or are parents these days just whipped up to a state of nervousness about what will happen if they're merely 'interested' and then let the school and the DC (yes absolutely, assuming a decent enough school) take the strain?