Independent or grammar?

[forestfriends]

Hi all, I would appreciate some thoughts on selective future schools for our children. I'm not looking for opinions on non-selective state schools or state v independent so with respect please keep those for another thread.

We currently have one DC in Y2 and one in Pre-school so they're both young and we have time to consider some future options.
Both are at independent school and I'm getting really frustrated by the ever increasing fees, decreasing days in the school calendar and amount of homework for the one in Y2... this experience is shared by parents of older children in the school and at other schools (SW London).

Whilst I gladly recognise the work the children do in school time, I feel like the holidays are becoming a joke (they're not even back yet) and the work is increasingly being overseen by parents and tutors at home which increases pressure on the children and means we get less proportionately from the school than we are paying for.

The schools get superb grades but I'm really falling out of love with the system and am questioning whether it will work for us as a family in the future due to the huge level of input that seems to be required from families in so many ways, not least almost 22 weeks of holidays a year. Both DH and I want to be able to support our kids in their academic and non-academic lives, but likewise we both want to sustain careers (I was at home until recently, now part time from home and am finding it impossible to be everything to everyone all the time), we also want to be able to enjoy time as a family without having to constantly worry about homework and tests and hot housing and what everyone else is doing to get ahead. FWIW, for DC1 I don't have too many concerns about ability re 11+ at this age, no reason to think it's not achievable with effort.

For those who have experience with grammar and independent school systems (and recognising every school is different), please can you share what you thought the pros, cons and expectations are?

We would gladly move to an area with grammars if offered a place. We aren't focusing on the money as the cost of a move would net out some of the savings in school fees anyway. It's more about finding the right balance for us all.

Thanks for your help

We left London for this very reason. We decided to stay in the private sector because even with a grammar school it's still a vastly underfunded state school. The pastoral care and quality of life just wasn't there for the kids. We left London and went for a still top 50/60 indie but there's no pressure, the families are very friendly and there's bugger all homework. I thought I'd really miss London but we only live a 45 min train ride away and honesty I don't go in as much as I thought I would. Feel free to PM me if you want school names.

A super selective is a school which offers places to those scoring highest in the test.

As opposed to other selective schools which every candidate who reaches the pass mark is then ranked by distance (so it doesn't matter how highly you score as long as you pass). Or some weird combination of selective for catchment and superselective for out of catchment.

It's not a synonym for 'very selective' or 'highly academic'. It's a specific state school admissions procedure.

It's not really used in the independent sector, because they are not bound by the Admissions Code and all are de facto super selective (school offers to those they most want, not those who live closest)

Okay, okay.. Noted for next time

“There are 2 girls GSs and 1 boys ( Simon Langton boys). All very well regarded and I believe you would have a good chance of getting if you are able/ in top 25%, but not necessarily super tutored.”
Not absolutely true- there are one girls’, one boys’ and one co-ed. The boys’ is now a semi super selective. And you have to live in the area for a chance of any of them. 10-12 miles-ish?

OP DD went to an independent selective junior school (It wasn’t a prep as it was all through) lots of homework and long holidays. The quality of teaching despite it being sought after school was rather patchy.

DD is much happier in her SS Grammar. We are SE London. IME it isn’t just about the school it is pressure from parents, DD currently gets light homework (Y9) and some parents are clamouring for more as they just introduced a homework free week each half term and have never set homework for holidays. Other grammars are very different. There is no guarantee that you’d get in, many at DD’s independent who took the test either didn’t make the cut or if they did they wanted to stay in the school with swimming pool and sparkly buildings, class sizes of 20, rather than the run down site that is DD’s school. Whilst DD has 27 in her class which is small by state secondary standards - another Grammar nearby has 32 and has some issues retaining teachers. DD is one of the few state school me in the area with a full complement of teachers so do be careful.

We would have to have sold our home to afford independent at secondary and considered that whilst a fortunate position to be in, it was a step too far for us and turned down a place at Sevenoaks so we did have a choice but not a ‘money is no matter’ type of choice. For DD she identified more with the girls at her grammar and it turns out it was absolutely the right choice as a quirky girl she has found her tribe and is really happy as well as doing well academically. She was miserable at the independent as she just didn’t fit in.

Having seen many parents make that choice about moving from independent to state - every scenario is different. I wouldn’t however have uprooted DD at this key stage, changing schools and homes are two big changes, also what about your younger one OP? DD sat the tests for Kent, Bexley and Newstead so all our eggs were not in one basket.

Good luck

Thanks for updating re Canterbury Bertrand Russell. I guess Barton court is no longer a grammar. The fact that Canterbury is not commutable from London must make the admissions situation less fraught than it would further west in the county.

Barton Court is a grammar. A co ed one. And all Kent grammar schools have catchment areas- even the super selectives. If two applicants both get top marks in the test and there is only one place left the one who lives nearer gets it.

My children are at Sir William Borlase’s in Marlow (Bucks) - love it. Essentially they have only offered to 3 miles in catchment for last 3 or 4 years. So not all catchment. There are residency requirements.

Only a third will go to grammar so you need to be happy with alternatives - Great Marlow is an excellent school or you can pay for Pipers, Queen Anne’s, The Abbey, Claire’s Court, Bluecoats and Shiplake who all have busses from Marlow.

And of course Wycombe Abbey but that really is primarily boarding as is Teddies.

Also busses to Headington and Abingdon and Moulsford (prep)

There are lots of outstanding state comps in Surrey and some have similar results to the normal/not superselective grammars in Kent. The OP doesn't have to move to Hampshire if she wants a fantastic comp, she can stay where she is but she doesn't want a comp.

Good point, Cake.

And in the end, the difference in results between good comps, Grammars and Super selectives simply reflects the intake.

In a good school of any kind (good/ good enough) bright hard working kids with supportive parents meet their potential and do well.

4 from Dc’s Tutor Group in an inner city S London Comp just got offers from Oxford. Note tutor group, not year. There are more Top Set tutor groups.

I’d echo the comments about being wary of moving to the fully selective counties like Bucks and Kent, as the alternative to Grammar isn’t Comp but Secondary Modern and to be honest you can’t judge that they are a shoo in from Yr2- being top table often isn’t good enough.
And for a place in a super selective where there’s no catchment just scores there are often 10 bright applicants per place, so you’re looking at getting into the arms race of probably a couple of years of preparation either home based or tutor with most still not making it. Speaking to people who’ve been through it in Bucks/Kent/for super selective is a must to get a feel for it and if you can stomach it. Look at the eleven plus forum for lots of detail and to get a sense of what’s involved.

2 things strike me about Ops post - she doesn’t seem to want to have to have as much input as she currently is and is keen to find a school where parents are called on less. Well, the reality is that interested parents do have big inputs. In independents, parents are on the touch line at sports fixtures 30 miles from home on Saturday mornings, they work on homework with little ones and read with them, go to school plays, drive the kids to training or pick up after play rehearsal and often spend hours on prep for entrance exams. This is the case with independent and state Ed. Paying doesn’t mean you pay to leave it to the school (perhaps it does more with Boarding) but you pay for an experience which often involves parents and spans more hours than a state school so might need more input.

State schools are so stretched for resources that the input needed from parents is even more as things are cut back to the bare bones of an education and creative and wider options are binned. If you want serious sport you’ll have to sort it yourself and if you want serious orchestras etc you may have to source it outside school.

The 2nd thing I note is you want value for money. Fair enough....and if an independent is disappointing then its worth considering if it’s worth it. There are lots of mediocre preps and knowing what to look for is really important. There are good Preps and Senior schools too and really in most cases it’s the best that are worth paying for unless you need independent for other reasons. A great independent CAN offer a lot. It can offer great teaching, a wider array of extra curriculars than possible at even a great state school, resources not hampered by terrible funding cuts and being willing to pay can simply give you choice you wouldn’t otherwise have - to go to the out of London mid-range school which is popular but not an arms race to get into and which has a wider range of ability but seems to do well for the able and the less able. If you pay, you will have more choice.

In the end, there are great State options, but they are highly sought after and you might not get what you want. And State education is different to Indepwndent - sometimes hugely so and other times much less significantly. In the end you need to work out what features you value in a school and see where those are available and if you’re willing to do what is needed to access them - it might be steep fees, or it might be moving to an area where lots of 11+ prep is needed and Secondaty Modern a real possibility, or starting on the super selective journey with all that involves.

With all of them, I’d say you’ll need a big parental input and those who do best in all sectors have that, although the nature of that input might vary.

There’s no easy route into the perfect schooling. It all ‘costs’ in terms of effort or money or stress - take your pick!

Wombat I strongly disagree that 'interested parents have big inputs'. I've always been interested in my DC and their education but I've never ever had a big input beyond Biff and Chips, which I read with them until each DC could read independently. Since then, nothing apart from going to an annual parents' meeting at school and reading interim reports which I've never commented on in the comments box. That certainly doesn't mean I'm disinterested, just that I feel the school should be left to do its job and the DC should learn independently of a parent. The eighth and final DC is in Y12 and I don't think their outcomes would have been any different (arguably worse) if I'd been doing their heads in asking about organisation, homework, revision timetables etc. I took the view at an early stage that if there was a problem the school would let me know.

That said, I do recognise that a lot of MN mothers evidently have massive inputs but I'd question the impact of the input. The thing is, it's unknowable and too many mothers seem too nervous not to persist with the massive input esp given that so many other people on MN or in their area or social acquaintance say interested parents need to have a big input. It's not good for the parent or the DC.

Oh, goodbyesrranger-I do wish you would stop extrapolating from your own unique (and I do know what the word unique means and use it advisedly) situation to the cast majority of the rest of us.

So goodbye just to check. Have you never:

• taken your DC to places of interest / plays / museums that coincide with what they are learning
• taken any action based on reports / if your DC had been struggling in something would you have just left them to it
• proactively bought materials to help with schoolwork
• helped sort out working spaces at home to ensure your DC have somewhere to work quietly
• gone on holiday to a particular country because they were learning that MFL
• paid for them to go on an optional school trip that would enhance their learning
• had a child with dyspraxia or other organisational issues
• made sure you don't organise holidays in the middle of GCSEs

TTT:

1. No never. Although I have taken entire sixth form groups to Krakow/ Auschwitz and we did go to London to see The Book of Mormon in 2015 but I can't think that the latter had much curriculum content.
2. But then, no need to take action and I can't answer hypothetically.
3. No.
4. Haha. They shared three to a room. Chance would be a fine thing.
5. No, we only ever went to Scotland and they none had learned Gaelic (and indeed there was never room in our house to even accommodate an exchange).
6. I made 'voluntary contributions' for any school run trip just as everyone else did except those who were in the category to have the trips paid for by the school.
7. Yes. Very pronounced spLD also a child who is deaf.
8. No, weirdly I don't take the DC on holidays in the middle of their GCSEs. That's a negative though, so not an 'input' so can't legitimately be included.

Bertrand I've only ever known you to fantasize about our circumstances and posit ridiculous and unfounded assertions. You don't have a clue about us or anything to do with us and that's evident from most of what you've ever said. It's not unique having eight DC, just not usual these days and why having eight DC go through school in recent years makes me less qualified or experienced than you with only two - well, please tell me!

Oops that should be No to #2. No. But then no need etc.

Oh my goodness! For MFL I meant to type that none were learning Gaelic. (Sorry, trying to cook a new recipe for the DS going back to uni tomorrow and not doing well on either the risotto or the posting).

goodbye I think then that you have been very lucky in both the nature of your children and the school they attend.

I think my DD1 would likely have failed at least 6 of her GCSEs if I had left her to it. She needed and wanted my help, and I supported her. She couldn't organise herself out of a paper bag.

Goodbyestranger- you have 8 children who all went/are going to a super selective school and then to Oxbridge. Which I reckon defines “unique”.

If you want serious sport you’ll have to sort it yourself and if you want serious orchestras etc you may have to source it outside school.

Not true - this will apply to some state schools and some independents!

“If you want serious sport you’ll have to sort it yourself and if you want serious orchestras etc you may have to source it outside school.”
Yes-you might have to pay for it. Just like private school parents do.

My daughter passed her 11+ into TWIGGS Tunbridge Wells Kent 4 years agi - unlike half of her fee paying prep girl friends.

You do realise in a grammar she will be only one 120 in her Year Group so if you can afford it go private, do it - we got a scholarship and bursary in the end x

#ago