Independent or grammar?

[forestfriends]

Hi all, I would appreciate some thoughts on selective future schools for our children. I'm not looking for opinions on non-selective state schools or state v independent so with respect please keep those for another thread.

We currently have one DC in Y2 and one in Pre-school so they're both young and we have time to consider some future options.
Both are at independent school and I'm getting really frustrated by the ever increasing fees, decreasing days in the school calendar and amount of homework for the one in Y2... this experience is shared by parents of older children in the school and at other schools (SW London).

Whilst I gladly recognise the work the children do in school time, I feel like the holidays are becoming a joke (they're not even back yet) and the work is increasingly being overseen by parents and tutors at home which increases pressure on the children and means we get less proportionately from the school than we are paying for.

The schools get superb grades but I'm really falling out of love with the system and am questioning whether it will work for us as a family in the future due to the huge level of input that seems to be required from families in so many ways, not least almost 22 weeks of holidays a year. Both DH and I want to be able to support our kids in their academic and non-academic lives, but likewise we both want to sustain careers (I was at home until recently, now part time from home and am finding it impossible to be everything to everyone all the time), we also want to be able to enjoy time as a family without having to constantly worry about homework and tests and hot housing and what everyone else is doing to get ahead. FWIW, for DC1 I don't have too many concerns about ability re 11+ at this age, no reason to think it's not achievable with effort.

For those who have experience with grammar and independent school systems (and recognising every school is different), please can you share what you thought the pros, cons and expectations are?

We would gladly move to an area with grammars if offered a place. We aren't focusing on the money as the cost of a move would net out some of the savings in school fees anyway. It's more about finding the right balance for us all.

Thanks for your help

There are an increasing number of slightly more affordable private schools, as there is a current trend for cutting fees (even Millfield has cut fees recently). You will in general get larger class sizes and less swanky facilities but still the pastoral support and academic rigour that you would expect from the private sector. These schools don't tend to be super selective but still will have entrance assessments and expect pupils to be above average. For example St Joseph's College in Reading cut its fees by 30% a few years ago and has gone from strength to strength since, including winning the Independent School of the Year award. Schools like this are a good option as there isn't the huge 'rat race' pressure for parents and kids but you're still giving them an excellent education.

Throughout the state sector (including grammars) the financial pressures mean that staffing is squeezed, and teaching resources are minimal (for example less science experiments as there is no money to run them). There is also generally a focus on independence of learning, with pupils expected to be self starters (and parents to step in if this isn't the case).

The private sector offers a lot more support and guidance, whichever school you end up at (although obviously there is a lot of variation between schools). Parent are paying customers and as such the school has a responsibility to keep them happy and informed.

Thanks Jack , another really interesting insight. We are definitely happy to swap the facilities for the pastoral care and teaching quality. At the moment we have been underwhelmed by teaching quality and also teacher turnover, it's not just limited to our school but seems to be a problem at all pre-preps in the area. It's a big source of frustration for us as it makes you question what you're getting (and ours is a well respected school).

I wonder what the trend will be in the future, I find it hard to understand how fees are going up and quality is going down but that is what it feels like we are getting at the moment.

The other thing you need to take account of is your children's differing needs and personalities. I have children in selective independent and super-selective grammar schools; I work in an outstanding comprehensive school. We were lucky enough to have a number of options for each of them, and so we chose the school that best met the needs of the child. Categorically I cannot say what meets the needs of my eldest would not suit my middle child.

Yes I agree W00t , DC1 I already know would manage in very selective environment, but DC2 we have to wait and see. I suspect less so. That's why we are really looking to explore and identify good options now so that we are well placed to prepare both children for a move in if we choose to in a couple of years time

The problem with rural 13+ preps is that they are generally preparing their pupils per entrance into boarding school if you're current budget it £40K pa for two kids then these will out of your reach without a bursary or scholarship and bursary. I've quickly googled a few preps that I know friends speak highly off and would hopefully provide the sort of education I detailed above but all are charging £7500 a term per child for day you're looking £10 000K for boarding so I suspect again outside of your budget.
What about moving away from the SE we have excellent high achieving comps in this area (with places) some achieving better results than lower achieving grammars Im sure other areas are the same.
"I wonder what the trend will be in the future,"
My prediction based solely to my experience of independent education as a parent and as someone who has worked in them is that the big names with matching big fees and plenty of applicants (including from the international market) will continue to push there fees up and attract good teacher because of all the perks housing long holidays good working conditions etc etc. But the less famous and outside of London may at the very least hold their fees.The only thing that may stop this is the shortage of money and teachers, and the increased focus on academic subjects brought about by progress 8 or whatever its called at the cost of non academic in the state sector which may in the medium term have a real impact on education. This may encourage some schools to drop their fees to encourage more parents to consider independent ed or it may mean that increased demand means they do't have too.
Im not convinced teaching it preps is always great TBH especially if they employ specialists teachers, I suspect for example it's much more enjoyable to teach Latin A level than Latin to 8 year olds. One prep teacher once told me that having taught ICT and DT in a prep for 10 years he would struggle to get back into the state system so he might as well stay and make the best of it, I know this is a generalisation but Ido think some teachers at prep school can get stuck in their ways and stale.

I’ve PMed you.

People have varying views about the Bucks Grammars. There is a sort of informal pecking order that used to be judged by the old admissions system of first preferences. However it’s more nuanced these days.

For many the two Dr Challoners grammar schools stand out. Aylesbury High, Aylesbury Grammar and The Royal Latin are quite large and popular. The co Ed’s are popular because they are co Ed! Sir William Borlase in Marlow has a very small catchment area and no guarantee of a place even if you live in it. Wycombe RGS had dodgy value added last year. Most of the Grammars here have + value added. This reflects over tutored children who then have to accelerate to catch up. Largely they do!

If you want a decent secondary modern, the best is Waddesdon c of e but it has vanishingly small catchment!

Girls independent Seniors are Pipers Corner, Berhamsted and Stowe (at 13) and boys it’s Stowe or Berkhamsted. However Berkhamsted and Pipers have their own preps and Pipers can be quite tricky to get into as they are way more selective than they used to be.

Godstowe is the top prep for girls. Fees for Y3 are £5,500. Boys go to Caldicott or The Beacon for prep for independent boarding schools at 13. Other preps concentrate on the Bucks 11 plus but this varies . Some preps are not worth paying for! Beware of cheap tiny ones!

happygardening sorry the £40k was a ballpark for prep fees but not a restriction for later, our fees for Y3 are £6000+ a term and our school is also heavily geared to the 13+ whereas we are probably more interested in moving at Y7 (not boarding). We would consider moving further West or central but have family in SE we would ideally not move too far from. Interesting perspective on fees and teaching, what you say makes good sense. It's such a competitive market and schools are businesses after all.

We've decided our financial planning now has to focus on optimising expenditure in the future rather than just depending on ever increasing income, the proportion of income that you take home in the SE now is vastly less than it was ten years ago because the cost of goods and services have risen SO high whilst net wages don't move at the same pace by any stretch.

bubbles these are fantastic recommendations, thank you very much

TeenTimesTwo do you mean because they are mostly state?

No, because they are comps which produce very good results for bright children (and less bright ones too), and I struggle to wonder why someone would go private round here unless they want the sport / other extra curricular / social exclusivity.

Op - I forgot to mention Wycombe Abbey for girls!!! Only one of the leading schools in the country. Only the brightest should apply though! Plus it costs rather a lot!

May I suggest King's and Kesteven Grammar schools in Grantham? Both excellent schools with good result and for me, decent subject teachers especially strong Maths department in girl's school for example. You don't have to live in catchment to apply and can wait for result before moving. It's 1hr 10mins to London King's Cross and I commute 3 days a week to London for work. Housing is cheap. Commute costs not but there are ways to reduce costs if you buy advance tickets. I have 2 children, self tutored and passed and saving myself a huge packet by not paying for private school.

Cambridge has a wide selection of independents. If you want high academic rigour and top marks there is the Perse. There are then the various college schools. If you want longer terms you’d need to avoid St Faiths. There’s also Kings Ely just up the train line, which has a broader spread of results (less pressured) and excellent pastoral care.

Regular trains to London, the quickest being 45 minutes to Kings Cross.

No grammars in Cambridge though, so you’d be looking purely through the independent options.

I went to a medium pressured academic selective girls school.

My child goes to a good comprehensive.

My education, compared to his was a complete waste of money.

Not comparable because I think many comps were different then.

But if I had a choice as to where to live I would head for the great Hampshire comps / Winchester.

I understand

But never assume that your child will get into grammar school. Always look at the options if they don’t.

Personal experience of Bucks grammars - my oldest is at Dr Challoner's Grammar and absolutely loving it. Lots of opportunities for trips, extra-curricular and all that. School does their best to foster a culture of independent learning. Advantage of Bucks grammars is that you only do one test which covers all the schools in the county.

But check location requirements very carefully - you need to have been living here for a while. Admissions process is pretty simple, too: if you score over 121 and live in the catchment area, you get a grammar school place - actual value of score if it's over 121 is not an issue. Catchment areas do change as well, so if you do make the move, think about that very carefully.

We are in Chesham so lucky enough to be in catchment area for both Chesham Grammar and Dr Challoner's - they're both pretty good schools but we felt all-boys would be a better environment. DCG was our first choice and CG our second.

Happy to answer any specific questions you might have - the Bucks section of the 11 plus forum as someone else has said is very good for info.

Y2 is very young to assume your child will pass the 11+ test, especially for a super selective.

We’re in Bucks and even with the (apparently) less stringent test, many kids tutored to an inch of their lives don’t pass, and that’s with sometimes two years’ professional preparation. Pass rate in our incredibly middle class school is 50% - so half of the ‘bright’, heavily tutored kids don’t get the required 121 (to much shock and devastation of child and parent).

I wouldn’t bet the farm on it.

Looking at the Bucks CC website, the 'in catchment' residence requirement for Dr Challoners Grammar School is for continuous residence from 1st April in year 5, i.e. from before the closing date for registration for the boy to sit the transfer test. And no places wete allocated out of catchment last year at least. So no good for the 'we'll move if DC gets a place strategy. For the other grammar schools, I think, the relevant date is 31st October (i.e. the CAF submission deadline. This gives one just over two weeks from results day to dispose of one's old home and get oneself and one's child(ren) moved into the new one, new primary school place(s) sorted etc.

I went to a super selective. Ended up living in Hampshire by accident. DC went to local state schools then Peter Symonds (state sixth form college) and now at RG universities. No 11+, no tutoring, no pressure, no fees. Hampshire is bliss! Sorry to be off topic though

Gota Completely agree. The OP doesn't want to know about state in Hants though.

Read up on the Bucks schools very carefully, you really have to commit before getting the results so need to move in good time & also be near a good secondary modern (that's the hard bit, not which grammar school to choose). Try the eleven plus forum. Many of the independent schools in Bucks aren't very selective as people prefer a free grammar education if they can manage it. For not top notch but decent schools that people seem very happy with look at Piper's & Claires Court in Maidenhead.

I suspect that in Kent the competition is fiercer for those grammar schools which are commutable from London. I went to GS in Canterbury. There are 2 girls GSs and 1 boys ( Simon Langton boys). All very well regarded and I believe you would have a good chance of getting if you are able/ in top 25%, but not necessarily super tutored.

Please be very wary of people suggesting the super selective grammar schools. These are very competitive indeed and certainly in North London/Herts where I am very well versed, I've NEVER met a child who got in with "a little bit of prep". They all had tutors or help from parents at home and practised. Some were insanely pushed, others exploited their natural talent. Whatever - it's a bet at best given the competition.
The superselective independents are easier to get into than their corresponding grammars, but still very tricky by anyone's assessment.
I urge you to look at the local comps. Certainly in London, these are flying up the charts in terms of standards, results and opportunities. Don't compare the headline figures with mediocre independent schools. Some of the latter massage the figures with kids sitting fewer GCSEs and different exam boards. The value add can be much more in a state school.

Hampshire, London, I believe Cambridge too has some great comps Oops sorry, OP, wrong thread!

How do you know what a super selective independent school is?