Why do people openly criticise decisions to send your kids to a private school?

[scotmum1977]

I sent my Son to a private school (Glasgow) last year for various reasons and it's working out really well. There is the cost but we just do without expensive holidays etc. I can't think of a better gift for my children than a good education. I was so surprised at how offended people get when they ask which school he attends. They think it's ok to criticise you openly and make bitchy comments here and there. Surely how you spend your own money is your own business. Anyone else have this experience?

Oh absolutely. But accents in Glasgow and Edinburgh are often an easy clue.

"Accents do mark out your social class."
But so do other less easily defined or indentified things.

True.

I wouldn’t “openly criticise” but I have been on the pointy end of “we just want the best for our children” comments, the subtext always being “we care more about our children than you do about yours” and I find it irritating and may become brusque. Also you can’t debate what “the best” actually means without coming across as an arse so you just have to grit your teeth. It’s also annoying when people tell you you could have what they have if only you had the right priorities (ie weren’t feckless). The main reason I wouldn’t go private is I was a private school kid so I’ve seen behind the curtain and I know if you skim off a load of middle and upper class 10 year olds who are capable of passing a fairly tough entrance test then you can do virtually nothing and churn out a load of fifth and sixth formers with a good clutch of qualifications. I wanted “the best” for mine.
I also hate that the government can defund state education without a forceful backlash because the privileged few are isolated from it.
I wouldn’t use private healthcare as having done a stint in a private hospital it scares the shit out of me. They are doing procedures they don’t have the facilities for and when it goes tits up patients get blue lighted to the nearest nhs facility.

I think it's hard to suck up personal criticisms. I sent DS2 to boarding school on here it's been implied or even stated that I don't love him, that we are a dysfunctional unhappy family and that at best he is a sociopath at worst pyscopapth. It's hard not to rise to it and despite the fact that I can provide endless evidence to the contrary including professional opinions (not just my own) but any assurances I make that we and he are none of these are ignored or I'm called delusional.
I admit very very occasionally over the many years Ive posted on here I've sunk to hurling personal insults at a few posters on here (1 in particular)and I know I shouldn't do it but I generally try not to do this and I find it hard to suck it up when people regularly do it to me and my DS because of my choice of education.

It doesn't bother me - their life, their choice, IMHO. I don't give a shit However what does annoy me is those who send their children to a private school start to act and think they are better than everyone else who are "lower" than them. Saying things like "well because I want "name" to go to a better school and not in a government school as they're full of children who are not disciplined". Maybe not in those words but I'm sure you get the drift.

The way I see it, is that it doesn't matter what job you've got or how much money you have, what school your kids go, where you go shopping, why M&S is better then Primark... that does not make you better than anyone else. It's down to your choice and your preference!

So yeah - do not rub other people's nose in it because if we become the bigger and better person, you'll find that nobody gives a shit.

Rant over

When I moved to E it took me some time to work out that some of the new friends I’d made were actually from here, they did not sound Scottish to me at all. Growing up in another area of the UK that had a strong regional accent the aspirational thing to do was definitely to lose or soften our accents, so I can imagine that adopting a different accent to other local children is one of the draws of a private education in Edinburgh.

I can’t link it but Spud’s job interview in Trainspotting is on YouTube and is worth a watch, though those really are the extremes of local accents!

I think it is about ‘owning’ your decision, but being aware of the viewpoints of others and being sensitive to them where appropriate. I do things all the time that people might not agree with and that’s ok. Shrug it off.

Than*

Wealth in education keeps the networks built as the basis for advancement.

This is the bit I doubt. It might be true for those who attend the (very few) major public schools, but it seems improbable that the obscure private schools (which is most) are perpetuating exclusive networks.

Of course your house (or area you live in) your occupation and hobbies signal social division. Our team at work comprises all social groups and I like everyone I work with but those I mix with from work are from the same professional groups as myself.
We live in a very wealthy MC rural area where social housing is hidden away from the main drag I mix socially with other MC people. Ditto my hobby (now on hold) I mix with other MC people who pursue it.
We are naturally drawn to those who are "like us" we can tell at 40 paces and in seconds those who are just by there general demeanour, dress accent. At work I can recognise a parent who pays for education in. 2 seconds they don't have to say a word.

There's a lot of snobbery about all sorts on here and in real life. I've seen lots of comments about how a child has to go to a grammar because top set in a comp doesn't cut it or if your child goes to uni it needs to be RG or Oxbridge. Or how it's not possible to survive on a salary of £30k when many do.

Your choice to use a private school gives your child an advantage. Some people fear that the advantage will mean their child being disadvantaged in the future. For example your child might have exams that are a grade higher than mine so my child might lose out on a uni place. In reality I know that it's not a case of private good, state bad because I'm a product of both but people not familiar with the system may fear that you are paying to get your child ahead. They forget that you using private means somebody else gets a place that you're not using and that there's no guarantee that private school will lead to success.

Most people can't cut luxuries like holidays and suddenly afford private school because there's no holidays being bought in the first place so there can be mixed feelings about not being able to provide a private school education.

I’m a teacher in an indie school but I have taught in the state sector for 10 years. My DD attends the school I work in for 2 reasons: drop offs, pick ups and holidays are easier with me not having to worry about a childminder and I receive a good discount.

Having taught in both sectors I’m under no illusion that the advantage of an indie education over a state education is significant. It doesn’t guarantee a perfect life and every opportunity under the sun but I would never have wanted my DD to have attended either of the two state comps I worked in. Yes, I taught many wonderful children who did achieve good results but some of them had a terrible time at school due to the behaviour of other kids, class sizes, number of supply teachers etc etc.

I’ve not experienced any negative comments about DD attending an indie school but I do live in an area where there are lots of indie schools.

I agree that it is unfair to have independent schools and that it helps create further social divisions but if private schools didn’t exist how would our government be able to educate all those kids whose parents pay for their schooling?

I think Ruffina is right about private ed being something symbolic to rally around. Where I live, most of the wealthy families don't use private schools - they have bought houses in the catchment of outstanding grammars, then paid for private tutoring to ensure their children get a place. They use the money they've 'saved' on private school to give their children an endless whirl of enrichment activities to bolster the state school provision - from cultural holidays to ballet lessons to music tuition to frequent meals out to sports club memberships. They also use the money they've 'saved' to buy massive houses which their children will one day inherit. This is all a massive perpetuation of class division. But they are able to pat themselves on the back because they have not chosen to send their kids to private schools.

There aren’t any grammar schools in Scotland. Northern Ireland doesn’t have private secondary schools apart from one or two, but does have grammars. I think the middle classes just find other ways to put their own selection in place based on ability to pay be it by housing/ tutor/ private school

I think the main advantage that an indie education provides isn't the old boy
Network which is open only to a select minority from the oldest public schools nor any bump in grades.

Indie schools can focus on the emotional and social wellbeing of their students in a way that state schools simply can't because of numbers. Indie schools have a far more homogenous group of children to cater for and that too makes it easier to go sideways in the curriculum. A bump from a A to an A* isn't going to matter in the long term. Even a bump from a B to an A. What does matter is a child who feels happy, well supported, has learned how to critically think, be a part of team, to try things they aren't good at, to be socially acceptable and at ease in most situations. That confidence is what indie schools provide. And you can't measure it in a league table. That's the unfair advantage.

Flossie, you're right, I know bugger all about the Scottish system. But the point you make is one I agree with - the middle classes will always find a way to gain advantage. My point is that private education is far from the only way of doing this (and is probably not nearly the most important one) - but it's just a particularly easy one to target.

Arababella- I must admit I worried about that before ds went to a private school. However, your view just shows an ignorant attitude to private schools and the way private school children are. The children and parents in ds school are very down to earth and not entitled or spoilt at all. Of course many of them have a very privileged lifestyle, many have vast amounts of money but many have both parents working full time and Uk holidays and modest houses. I think the children only grow up entitled and spoilt if that's the attitude of the parents and the views the parents put on them not because of the school they go to. They could have this attitude at the local state school.

My child will not be growing up like, I make sure he socialises with a wide range of other children, none of our friends children go to private school, and we still socialise with them regularly.

We have not had any bitchy comments yet about using a private school. I would not regard our friends as friends if they did. We ve had a few you're so lucky comments but that's it. However, we have had a few raised eyebrows about sending ds to private school from reception. I used to feel the need to justify this but I ve stopped doing that and now don't actually give a sh** what others think.

Holly, exactly that, which is pretty much what happygardening also said earlier. It's another incorrect assumption that people make about those who send their children to private schools - that they want their kids to 'climb the greasy pole' or use the OE network to get a great job. I couldn't give a damn about any of that, but I do want my children to have the most enriching educational experience they can. I'm not pretending that that's not still an unfair advantage - it is - but it's a different one to what people often assume. I went to a state school, my husband went private, we went to the same university and I did marginally better than he did, both in my degree and my eventual salary. But the broader education that he got - in everything from sport, to history, to the arts etc - was totally different from my school experience, which was very much focused on exam results, and that's what I want for my kids. You only have to pop over to the staffroom threads to see why people go private - it's not about buying a place in the cabinet or the right wine club, it's about wanting your children to be taught by teachers who aren't stressed beyond belief, who have small enough classes to give each child quality time, who can afford glue sticks, who aren't battling so hard against behavioural problems that they have a chance to actually teach. And yes of course, that's what every parent wants for their child, and only some are lucky enough to be able to afford it - but that doesn't make it fair to vilify those who are able to make that choice.

Er no
No-one ever criticised

Independent education is an easy thing to kick out out, those oppose it mutter on about old boy net work, spoon feeding to achieve better results, buying advantage etc. But it's so much more complicated than that by being the DC of an oligarch/Sunday Times rich lister etc you are born with many advantages even if you never step your foot inside Eton and many wont. By being born into a comfortably of MC family even if you attend state school you'll still have advantages that those born into abject poverty will struggle to ever have.
To address the problem of advantage and social division poverty and our division of wealth would have to be addressed the question that would ave to be addressed is it right that so few should have so much? As I get older and become -cynical- realistic I realise that this question can only be addressed in such a way to benefit of all in Utopia.

Flossie- totally agree about owning your decision. I used to feel I had to justify it and would play it down. But now I don't feel that way. When asked why I chose a private school I tell people the truth but I also say we would have been ok with the local primary school, which we would have been. So far this seems to be a good enough answer for people.

I usually just say ‘we are incredibly lucky to have had the option to look at all sorts of schools for our daughters and this one suited as had wrap round care and was good location for work’. But I never volunteer unless directly asked.

Envy. Usually.

I'd love to send DD to private school but we couldn't afford the additional support for her disability. We had to move house to find an accessible school and thankfully it meets her needs. We may go for private secondary as she is becoming more able as she gets older.

Worth bearing in mind that choosing schools works differently here. Even with the extra points DD got because of her disability we weren't guaranteed an accessible school for her.

I'm also laughing at the suggestion there are not extremes of wealth in Glasgow!

On the class division point, I live in a country that doesn't (broadly speaking, apart from international schools for expats and a few other niche schools) have a private education system. And although the standard of state education is uniformly quite high across the board and generally there is less extreme social division than in the UK, there is still academic elitism within the system, with places in a handful of top state secondary schools being the most sought after. So I'm not convinced that bannig private education is the cure- all that some people assume it might be. Nor do all schools in the private sector provide an academically rigorous education.

Personally, I think it is about trying to raise standards across the board by insentivizing and supporting the best teachers to work in the state system and to remain in it. Good teacher training and good teachers are the key.

"But I never volunteer unless directly asked."
I'm not convinced that you're "owning you decision".
As someone who often makes difficult decisions at work I very much own mine and am not afraid to make my decisions known even to those who don't agree.
Should we be ashamed that we pay for education? Is it just UK MC angst? I can assure you oligarchs/Sunday times rich listers are definitely owning their decisions. As are friends in Asia who pay to send their DC's to the UK for school and university.