Very High ability dd(111 in SATS) been put in bottom set maths-action?

[Mumof3xbears]

Would love advice from any teachers, heads of maths or parents been in similar situation.

My dd has consistently been in the very top of her class often coming joint top with another student. Always working on higher level work and then going for extensions. In her SATS she was one of a small handful of children that achieved are+ in all areas.
Since starting secondary school she has worked hard and found the work easy and the internal assessments easy too. She says cats on computer where a bit weird but she’s generally a bright girl all round.
Anyway last week the year 7 were set and my dd was put in bottom set. She devastated and said kids she’s with were doing the lowest level work at primary and set 2 were the middle runners. Even some kids are shocked that are in top set as they said they were struggling previously. I hadn’t been worried as I thought she was a shoe in.
I’ve made an initial enquiry and they’ve come back and said she didn’t make top 60 on the assessment but I really struggle to see that happening but now my battle will be convincing them to check that it wasn’t a marking or data input error which is my gut feeling.
How can a child go from excelling and achieving above the expectated level in all areas to totally flunking and being put in bottom set. Just doesn’t make sense.

Just because she isn’t in the top 60 doesn’t necessarily mean she’s flunking - I take it the secondary has intakes from a lot of primary schools?

I would take the angle that she’s finding the work too easy and isn’t being challenged by it. If her ability is much higher than they think they will realise this quickly. I’d be letting them know the work is too easy for her and supporting her to do extra work at home so she doesn’t fall behind.

You say bottom set - how many sets are there? Two or three, or more?

There are 3 sets in her half of the year.
She’s had a different text book to the top 2 groups.
They intake from just 3 schools and then a handful of kids to take in from elsewhere.
Considering her ability I’d of pitched her in around top 20. Especially when other kids in the top set haven’t performed as well generally, and the kids in middle group we know even a mum said to me her kid struggles with maths.
I’m not that over zealous mum who demands top set only but how can a kid only doing the highest work for as long as I can remember with her academic history it just seems like an anomaly.

It does seem very strange. Have they done a single test and based it on that? Could she perhaps have been unwell / struggling on that day?

I would definitely raise it with them - you have a lot of evidence that she’s very strong in that subject and it will be demoralising for her to have such easy work.

Apparently cats on computer (which she found weird and didn’t like doing on computer) and then a written assessment which she said she found easy, had time to check the whole thing. The boy she’s always been in line with is very top set too. She’s very studious and she’s been in tears over it as she knows she’s with kids who struggled big time in primary.
We did have to get rid of our dog the first few weeks in to school but even with that I really don’t think she would of done that badly.

What I’m concerned about it they’ve initially just checked the data on the computer even though I’ve made my thoughts/concerns very clear. Seems crazy to me. But feel like I’m going to have to battle to get them to remark or check the data input. And even if by chance did not do that well then it also seems odd that they would set on this despite her history of maintaining this standard for the last few years. She achieved exceeding the expected level in January mocks in everything too. Maths papers 40/40 31/35 29/35. She’s so sad and I feel so awful for her especially as I don’t feel like the school will make this easy 😢

cats on computer where a bit weird

Most secondary schools I know set based on CATS test results. This is because some (most) primaries "teach to the test", rather than develop a broad understanding of the subject. This can sometimes be most obvious in children who have subject based personal tutoring.

CATS tests are intelligence tests. You can't revise for them and they are similar to MENSA tests. They so verbal and non verbal reasoning, rather than a persons ability to regurgitate facts.

It might be that she had a bad day on the days of her cats testing. Or it might be that she's great at learning stuff and working hard and that is the reason for her sats results.

Personally, if it was my child I would use it as "a great way to show how awesome you are". If she excels in class she will quickly move up the sets. The teachers will definately notice if her ability outstrips her set. It would be great for her confidence (imo) to be moved up on her own merit and hard work, rather than because mum sorted it out. The net result will be the same - if she's inappropriately set she will be moved up whether you intervene or not.

I think it's worth raising along with her SATS scores, but it is certainly possible that she's messed up on her test score. I've known it happen that a child who performs well at primary panics at secondary and makes a complete pig's ear of an assessment. Usually it's picked up fairly quickly, but it isn't always possible to swap quickly as sometimes the top sets are full.

111 is good, but not amazingly good, so it's certainly possible that she isn't top set (I don't think it would get you top set in my dc's comp every year) but bottom set seems unlikely unless it's selective.
However with only 90 in the year (if you say there's only 3 sets) then you will get variations in the year grouping more than if it's a larger cohort, so it may be that you've just got a well achieving cohort.

I think you definately need to pursue this. My dd is high ability (just got Grade 9 I. English & Grade 8 in maths) but some of her cats scored were very spiky due to specific learning difficulties (she has aspergers but other conditions can cause a similar anomaly. )

Hummm, that does seem a bit odd. Of course, she's in a bigger pool now, and it may be that the other feeder schools have a much stronger maths cohort (e.g. my ds got 106 in maths sats and was towards the bottom of the third of 4 sets in her (state) secondary school, and indeed seen as relatively poor at maths at her primary) but to go from top of class to bottom does feel extreme. You've already raised it with the school, so I would go back to them and point out that she has been considered a very able mathematician in the past, and is finding lessons very easy, and asking if they can keep an eye on her progress and reassess her after she's settled in. It should be pretty obvious if she is in the wrong set. I do think also lots of secondaries are a bit suspicious that children have been taught to the SATs curriculum, so scores aren't necessarily a strong indication of potential ability, hence relying more on their CATs, but it does mean if your dd had a bad day, she might have been 1 mark below and slid into the 'wrong' set...

And after having had a year of Ds being in bottom set English due to completely flunking an assessment & class work as his access arrangements hadn’t been put in place you need to act now not leave it.

It’s 180 in the year. It’s not selective.
Only 11 our if 60 achieved are+ in everything. Her teaching described her as having a natural ability, excelling and having a broad range of understanding and ability to apply her knowledge. Her last report said she was exceeding in every single area. The majority of children meeting and some not. She didn’t have any tutoring either and I don’t believe she was trained to test at her primary.
How she has gone from doing the most challenging work to least is beyond me.
Either she performed poorly or it’s been mismarked or input incorrectly but either way putting in bottom set after 1 assessment when she’s out performed for years is very demoralising for her.
Trust me I’m not that pushy parent but my gut instinct tells me this really doesn’t feel right for her.

Gosh, it sounds wrong to me. Regardless of the cats test she’s either finding the work easy or she’s not, and from what you’ve heard the lower set work isn’t challenging enough for her. I’d give it a week- tell DD that setting isn’t accurate and tell her to ‘show off’ her ability. Come back to the school a week later and complain so the teacher has had evidence of her work.

Honestly, what shocks me the most about these stories is the amount of tests and scores fed to primary/ early secondary children. It’s so much pressure for a child that has just started secondary. It doesn’t take into account how children develop at different rates nor the effect of extra tutoring. It seems this new system lets down the top and bottom performers!

Bad day=bad test result=inadequate education.

Much better to be top in a lower set than bottom and struggling in a top set. If it's a comp, her ability should become very apparent to school that they have made a mistake. If it's selective, it may just be others are better. 111 at SATS is fantastic, but not in the realms of real high achieving maths. I second the comments about being a fish in a bigger pond, and this is not a bad life lesson to learn. Being good at SATS is not always a good indicator of future potential, this is why the school has done the CATS tests.

Not always change. Ds has spent the last year in English with children who cant understand any of the texts they are reading never mind write about them and consequently he has not put any effort in at all.

“Of our” not our if

It is all rather a worry. We know a lot of the kids in top set and my Dd would likely sit in the middle. Hardly any kids at her school got over 110 and they make up nearly half of the intake. Kids that have struggled with recent class work have been put up.
I don’t think she’d be anywhere near struggling in top set. Let alone middle.
It’s a school that takes from 3 feeder schools. The other schools weren’t over achievers, and our school did generally well as most passed but like I say very few achieving top scores. I know it’s not all about SATS but she’s exceeding in her ability and understanding not just testing.
My major concern is how often they reset. And also how much confidence loss this will cause. Found her crying in the bathroom last night wondering what the hell has happened and convinced someone swapped her papers. Honestly if you could all see her reports you’d get this.
She’ll be predicted 8’s and 9’s in all her subjects for GCSE so she should flag up as an anomaly.
I’m really hoping it’s an input error.

Ring the Head of Maths for clarification of what they used to place her where they did.
You could ring head of Year but they will just liaise with Maths so go to Maths direct.
😊

I would ask the school to investigate. The fact that some struggling children are in the top rings alarm bells. Has there been an administration issue with the scores? (eg wrong score assigned to wrong child, wrong userID to child hence wrong score). The fact that there is more than one mis-placed student suggests there may have been a mix up.

I would reiterate not to rest on this. If she is on a different book she will not be learning what the higher sets are - it will become increasingly harder to prove that she should be in a higher set, because the material won't be covered. If nothing else, buy or borrow the higher set book for her to work through at home.

This really sounds like an admin cock up.

If I've learnt one thing from dd's time at school it's that you never look back and regret being "that parent" but you do regret not fighting for your child. She only gets one education and this could have major implications for her future. I think you need to make a nuisance of yourself (politely of course)

Mum - The one thing I will say about ds being put in bottom set English was that I got a personal phone call from the HOD before sets were announced explaining it. It was still an anomoly and caused by his asd and access arrangments but it was seen as son unusual I got a phone call.

I can't believe it has just been sprung on your dd like this with no explanation.

Thanks guys. Yes my major concern in doing a different book is just that, they will say she’s too behind which is why I’m trying to act on this instantly.
I asked for a phone call but I just got an email and I don’t want an email about investigating admin to sound like too much of a dig that they’ve made a mistake whereas over the phone it can said in a nicer way.

I’ll be going back to the school and raising it again to look into it further. I think I’m just worried about them refusing to budge or admit a mistake.
There should always be room for her as there is no class size limit in maths.
And yes some kids were generally suprised at their placement in groups at the top end.
My DD said she was the only kid answering questions in her new class last week as no one else had a clue.
Very sad mum.

First of all, your daughter shouldn't be crying over a maths set in the first term of Y7. I'd be worrying about that to start with.

If she's genuinely in the wrong set it will come out very quickly and she'll be moved. If there are only 3 sets then even the bottom will not be that low. Both my DC have spent time in sets that were arguably too low. They just got on with it, enjoyed being "top of the class" and were moved up fairly quickly.

CAT scores are used to set in different ways.

Some schools will take the average cat score and set from this and so kids will be in same set level for maths, English and sometimes science is set too.

My ds scored a mean SAS of 112. This placed him overall in 2nd to top set. Except his individual NPR (percentile scores) were

Verbal 22. (SAS 88)
Non verbal 90. (SAS 119)
Quantitative 86 (SAS 116)
Spatial 95 (SAS 125).

For numerous reasons I won't bore you with he moved schools in yr 8. Suddenly he's top of top set maths and has 1:1 TA support in English.

I think you need to ask for her specific scores for each area tested as well as her overall score. Have a look at these. Does she have an area of weakness that pulls her overall score down? Was it a maths cognitive test?

Also what group is she set in for other things?

Youarenotkiddingme's example is what I meant by a spiky profile. If a school is not looking at specific individual areas in conjunction with other thing it isn't very helpful. Dd's scores were the other way around

Verbal 131
Quantative 105
Spatial 118

in case you don't know the average is 100 with a standard deviation of 20. Now although her quantitative is still in the average range the fact it is so much lower than verbal indicated a problem. And thats where an experienced school with a good senco is worth its weight in gold.

Maybe ask to see her written test, in the guise of 'want to help show her where she went wrong so we can work on it at home'. Then you'll be able to see if it was an admin error (her test result is actually high) or if she actually rushed the paper and made lots of silly mistakes