Very High ability dd(111 in SATS) been put in bottom set maths-action?

[Mumof3xbears]

Would love advice from any teachers, heads of maths or parents been in similar situation.

My dd has consistently been in the very top of her class often coming joint top with another student. Always working on higher level work and then going for extensions. In her SATS she was one of a small handful of children that achieved are+ in all areas.
Since starting secondary school she has worked hard and found the work easy and the internal assessments easy too. She says cats on computer where a bit weird but she’s generally a bright girl all round.
Anyway last week the year 7 were set and my dd was put in bottom set. She devastated and said kids she’s with were doing the lowest level work at primary and set 2 were the middle runners. Even some kids are shocked that are in top set as they said they were struggling previously. I hadn’t been worried as I thought she was a shoe in.
I’ve made an initial enquiry and they’ve come back and said she didn’t make top 60 on the assessment but I really struggle to see that happening but now my battle will be convincing them to check that it wasn’t a marking or data input error which is my gut feeling.
How can a child go from excelling and achieving above the expectated level in all areas to totally flunking and being put in bottom set. Just doesn’t make sense.

Hey @Mumof3xbears!

I was your daughter once. Bright, really excelled and then one day BAM! I got whacked into the bottom set for maths (270 pr year and I was in the bottom 30 having previously been top 30)

There were a whole host of reasons behind my setting which aren't worth going in to now but my mum spoke with the school and told me that this was my time to "show them how awesome you are." Exactly as a PP said.

So I did. I could VERY easily have half arsed the work, dossed about and still been top in that class as the work started off being far too easy but instead I diligently completed every page, every question at my best pace and then took it to the teacher saying I was done.
So then came the week of "page 136, all the odd questions. Space, you do all the questions"

Completed that before most of the class had completed a couple of questions.

My teacher was very good. He had the bottom set with the difficult and struggling students because he was so good. So he took work from higher and higher groups and taught the class then after I had completed that work I had more to do.

I was working at the top set level within a half term.

He discussed this with mum and I. We decided to keep me in the class for the full year. I think that chucking me in another class would have been a searing issue but also, my confidence in my ability was rocketing under his care.

The rest of the class kinda ignored me. That was fine by me.

A at GCSE maths, studied physics and Chemistry A levels. What I'm saying is it hasn't affected me.

But she is not in the bottom 60 is she? And she is not bottom set, she is in the third set out of 6. I don't think it matters how well she did in the other sats, what matters is her maths score and how well she did in whatever she did at school and obviously the other kids did better than her. If she really is very high ability they will sooner or later notice and I would guess she would get 100% in everything

Something sounds off. Whilst youd think she could end up in the middle set with an off day, that would have to be one major off day and for the school not to take anything else into account? There's no child with the same name as her or anything? I think all the people saying "she's not top top" are missing the point in the fact that she is clearly not bottom 30% in a comprehensive school and should not be doing a different scheme of work

If the work is too easy for her she's in the wrong set, it really is that simple I think. My concern is if she is doing a whole other textbook she could fall behind quite quickly of where she should be.

If they do year halves, then set 3 is bottom set - two top sets, two middle and two bottom. It’s unlikely that set 3 would be taught the same stuff as set 1.

I just looked at SATs results for our Y7, two halves with 4 sets in each half. 111 would just scrape top set, and we get a good helping of high prior attainers.

I'm intrigued by how much you know about all the children in your daughter's primary school.
When you say Are+ do you mean working above the expected level? I have never heard it called this before. Children cannot get working above in SATs, so are you saying the school reports how many are teacher assessed as working above?

I would approach it in a way of being concerned something has unsettled your DD for her to score so far below what she has been achieving rather than you are concerned school have made a mistake. Don’t focus on the sets too much.

So, along the lines of her SATS results were the top xx% and she achieved exceeding target on last report and now has scored in the bottom xx% and you are understanbly concerned that something is amis for her to score so low despite being either top or joint top for the past X years.

Either school has made a mistake or your daughter has scored drastically different to previous years, whichever it is is concerning and needs looking into.

Don’t mention any other kids though and they are surprised at their set etc. Just focus on why your DD has scored drastically lower.

I do think she needs you to speak up for her here - you’re doing the right thing. Politely insist on a meeting of the email stuff doesn’t lead to action.

Just have an open conversation with them. If it's a blip on the tests they did or an error on their part, she'll easily demonstrate this.

DD got 120x3 and is quite high achieving but has friends who got 113 and aren't in top set maths as other children simply did better.

Is there a child with a the same name? My ds had to be referred to as little name as there was a child with exactly the same name and caused no end of confusion in the early weeks including being placed in the wrong class.

Make an urgent appointment to see the head of maths. Underachieving and lack of challenge can have really demotivating effect.
If she’s not following same curriculum catch up and moving will be harder. The higher sets will be moving at a much faster pace and she’ll be left behind.
Buy the higher set book and work with her on it at home until resolved satisfactorily.
Don’t be put off.

It’s area and school dependent though isn’t it? Average maths score for the LA where my nieces are is roughly 110. Her primary and the couple of surrounding schools have an average much higher than that. I’m not sure 111 would get you near top set, whereas you’d stand a chance of the top couple in my local school. I’d be surprised if it’s bottom set in any non selective school.

You might be better off focusing on the work being too easy rather than the test scores themselves. Don’t be afraid to keep going back to them if it doesn’t get resolved.

I’m so glad you are going to do something about this.

It’s the ‘lock in effect’ that being in a low maths set which is the really worrying thing in terms of your dd’s future.

Doing different work and getting used to being under stretched whilst the gap grows ever wider and the difficulty in her swapping work streams becomes more and more challenging.

I’d go into school using the most collaborative language you can, and making it clear that you aren’t going to blame them and they don’t have to get into their ‘self-justification retrenchment’ defensiveness’ mode which means they’ll block you with anything (so bloody frustrating when that happens!)... but also not letting yourself get fobbed off and not accepting such an odd turn of events as ‘truth positive’, because, sadly, this kind of thing often becomes a self fulfilling prophesy.

Whatever you do I’m sure you’ll be better than my parents :)

Your post has given me flashbacks to my childhood, where both my older sister and then me were setted low for maths in spite of being very good at primary school.

My sister was very shy and anxious so I guess I forgive them for making a mistake with her and then her getting to stressed and performing down to meet expectations, but with me it was just lazy stereotyping.

I actually scoring 100% in my maths 11+ paper, getting more than everyone in my school in spite of many of them having a lot of private tuition for their 11+ as they were going off to private schools. Yet one term later I was told I had no real ability for maths and should be happy I wasn’t in the top sets because I’d get soooo confused and lost, just like my sister (patronising idiots!).

My ineffectual parents just did a lot of hand wringing and an awful lot of werritting away about it every night into the wee small hours at home... and did precisely nothing about in beyond ridiculous anxiety within the walls of our home.

So my older sister got to her gcse year and it cane as a terrible shock to my parents to find out she was t going to be entered for the papers that would allow her to even get a ‘C’! So most uni courses wouldn’t except her. So lots of drama and tears and panic, all of which could have been avoided if my parents had been a bit wiser years before that.

At least for me I was a bit more of a fighter and didn’t let them stereotype me so much, but it was still really hard and a lot of doors were closed to me because of my lack of maths skills. I was actually very good at sciences, struggled through A-level physics and chemistry without the maths to back it up, and went on to use complex stats at university, and later in my career, but I’d definitely say that was in spite of schools maths teaching rather than because of it.

never intervened with stuff like this, but I don''t think it comes from not caring. Where mine weren't in the top set I didn't fuss about it at all, although I think my DC are pretty clever

The issue with Maths is you have to be in the top sets otherwise you get put in for a different exam.

FWIW Ds struggled through SATS but came 2nd in his secondary school out of 270 in the Maths exam

The other 3 who went to the school from his OFSTED in Special Measures primary school came 1st, 3rd and 4th.

It does sound like she's in the wrong set. It could either be that there's a cock up somewhere or maybe your school only go by their own tests and for some reason how she performed didn't reflect her true ability. (Nerves/tiredness etc.)
I see no harm in asking about it.

Oliversmumsarmy I see that it's a problem if you're able at maths and not put in for higher tier at GCSE but that's a long way down the road. OP has already said she has concerns that the school won't make it easy so why go in for a fire and brimstone approach when you have another five or seven years to go at the school? It's a really bad idea for a parent to make a name for themselves and become a rather tedious joke among staff. Anyone going in with all guns blazing in Y7 is asking for trouble.

OP you do seem unusually knowledgeable about your DD's peers, in terms of ability. I'm not familiar with the numbers involved (111 etc), I think mine got letters in primary. But OP how on earth can you say that your DD is going to be predicted all 8s and 9s? I'm looking back over eight DC at school who've run the whole gamut of GCSEs in terms of unreformed and reformed and with none of them, even at a superselective grammar, would I have put money on their being predicted all A* or all 8s and 9s, from the vantage point of Y7. I have to say that comment slightly undermines your credibility, certainly it would if you said it to the school. I'd keep that particular card close to your chest!

Different schools have different way of working out pathways to gcse results. At dd’s school, based on cats and sats (hers are old style) they break it down to 6/7 or 7/8/9 for the top sets, with different targets for different subjects, from year 7, although these are adjusted over time.

At ds’s school they, for some reason, based on sats (new style) and cats, have him as target of 9s for everything. I expect this to change because it’s pure craziness to predict 9s for everything for anyone and seems like they’re setting themselves (and the dcs) up for not meeting that overinflated target. Ds got 120x3 in sats but he was taught to pass three subjects in sats, reading, maths and spag. I don’t think it’s possible to extrapolate from that that he will get a 9 in history or biology or whatever at gcse.

Anyway - LEA is high performing at sats and in his top set maths I would imagine most dcs would be 114 or above. Will be different in different areas and different schools.

But definitely worth checking with the head of maths that there hasn’t been a mistake because top third to bottom third of year (2xtop, 2xmiddle and 2x bottom) seems like quite a drop when she’s had feedback that is exceeding in maths.

It doesn’t undermine her credibility. I think she’s just used predicted grade, rather than target grade. The school might not let you know what it is, but there will be a target grade set on the basis of ks2 sats score. It’s part of the accountability measures.

I don’t think 111 would equate to 8s and 9s, more likely 7. But if the school have mis set her and won’t move her or provide harder work, they might well end up having shot themselves in the foot as well.

Janleverton it would be interesting to know how many DC in your DS's school got all 9s (or A* equivalent in D&T etc) this summer compared to the number who are predicted all 9s in Y7 on the basis of CAT/ SAT.

At our school no GCSE predictions are given to parents until the DC have started the GCSE course.

Rafals since I've never had a GCSE prediction before my DC have started their GCSE couses, I assumed the OP had simply decided that for herself! (which would be a bit OTT). It makes no sense to give parents predictions in Y7 and not required for compliance either (to pass them onto the parents I mean). It's daft. Not good for the DC either.

At ds's previous school they were given Grades that equated to GCSE predictions right from the word go. Every piece of work was graded 1-4 with 1 equalling on course for A/A* (7-9), 2 = 6 (B) 3 = 4/5 (C) and 5 = D and below (it was selective).

Dd wasn't given GCSE targets or predictions until Year 9 (they used old NC levels before that) but the school has now moved towards using GCSE 1-9 predictions and targets from Year 7 onwards.

Ds's current school starts in Year 9 and they use GCSE predicted and on track for Grades from the very beginning.

Our school has taken a very clear policy decision not to give predictions until Y9 when the GCSE course starts. I prefer that and think it's healthier for the students, but each to their own - it will depend on the individual headteacher.

You have never had it given to you, but if your DC were in a state school there were targets set.

It’s not unusual for schools to give them to parents or for parents (especially on here) to confuse the terms targeted and predicted.

It doesn’t make them meaningful, but it does make the spreadsheets look pretty.

Do sets matter in year 7? My son was put on the G&T register after he achieved 131 in the non-verbal reasoning part of the CATS. We got a call from his head of year as apparently that's in the top 2% of the U.K.

He was still placed in 2nd set Maths for Y 7 and 8. I suspected he was coasting so offered him £150 if he moved up to top set. 😆 He achieved that in 3 months, by working as hard as he could in homework and class. That was expensive!

I would definitely query that and find out what cats score was and how often adjust sets. If she described the test as weird it could be she had issues on that test but I would want to know why. I would also have thought even with a really low cats score as SATS is good there should be some flexibility in moving her at least to middle set. If they review each half term I would be less concerned though its still not ideal.

It depends on the school whether sets matter or not.

Neither of my children were set in Year 7 (ds ws in a selective school sat this point though so everyone was taught Higher content. In year 9 he moved schools and was put in Set 2 (out of 5) . He was finding the work easy, spoke to the teacher about how he could access more challenging work and was moved into Set 1 within 6 weeks. The maths teacher said that he appeared to have covered a lot more of the syllabus than the children at the other two feeder schools.

Dd was in mixed ability in Year 7 and coasted. There was an extention group but she wasn't selected (which is funny now as she got a higher grade in the end than everyone who was selected). When she was set the Higher Set moved at a much faster pace than the lower set and covered more content.

So yes, it can matter quite lot.